Tim B

I temporarily placed the gilt palm on the Leo I; the pins fit the existing holes perfectly but, I have not bent them down yet.

Looks really nice but, is the style correct for this Order? I want to be correct.

Tim

Hello all!

Well, its been a few months. The gilt palm I had on hold from a certain UK dealer fell through as he was "too busy" to be bothered for a quick PIC of the palm I was going to pay for. So, I told him not to worry, as I won't be spending any more money there and now he will have more time in the future.

Anyway, I just received another one, for FREE, and wanted to ask some opinions on the issue before completing the placement.

Here's a comparison shot of two palms I have; the silver Albert palm with the cutouts is the type I had hoped to put on the Leopold I shown earlier. I really like this variety and have seen gilt ones; they are very sharp and classic looking! The gilt one is the one I am considering placing on the Leopold I. It's nice, and in great shape, just no cutouts.

Not knowing if any of these were made at different eras, I want some "others" to give their opinions on the choice. Greatly appreciate any thoughts!

Tim

Well, I finally received my last two Fire Cross and will post good close-up comparisons soon. I still think the one Rob shows above is yet another variation in addition to all the ones I have.

Here's another cufflink along with the first one shown earlier and one for a Military Cross. This second Fire Cross cufflink is unmarked. The Military Cross is a well marked example by Degreef.

Tim

PS: Oh, BTW, I know a person in Belgium that is offering a nice Fire Cross Grave Marker.

The price is 65 Euros, plus shipping. He quoted me 26 Euros shipping to the US (it's heavy). I don't collect these, so if anyone is interested, please contact me and I can put you in contact with the seller. He's a great guy and also helps find other items (medals, etc.) if you are looking for something and can't find it. Let me know.

Tim

Looking good you two!

Guy, again, your website has been a goldmine of information!

Detlev That's why I thought I would start with something simple like the Fire Cross; too many variations in the MD, and still I ended up getting more than I bargined for.

Tim

And...for your viewing pleasure;

Again, if I am reading this correctly, an Albert I, Double A, Type 9 with palm. Nice patina!

Tim

Detlev & Uwe

Thanks again for taking the time to respond and giving your thoughts and knowledge on this.

There is not a lot of information out there that I have found that shows the myriad of different boxes, cases, palms, or half a dozen other things. Sometimes the information can be unwanted, even painful, but it needs to be said in order to get the correct information out there for collectors. Thanks again for the help!

The seller is also learning Belgian awards and she was unaware of the discrepancy. As such, after coming to a mutually agreed upon remedy, I have kept the medal and got some money refunded! I also gave here some help in identifying a restrike on one of her Fire Cross, again thanks to the knowledge sharing here by yet another collector!

Tim

:banger: Well Uwe, not good news, but what I needed to hear and see I guess. Many thanks you two!

Now, to see if the seller is willing to work something out.

Tim

Hi Detlev,

Thanks for the response! Well, I am not so sure to rule this one out just yet. I have found that many of the medals, along with the cases, have differences between makers. Keep in mind the Military Decoration has went through a wide variety of changes over the course of it's history and I'm sure the case has as well, not to mention the difference in manufacturers.

I can say this, the case inside is inlaid where the medal sits and it's a near perfect fit in shape and size around the cross and crown. The case top only shows the "2nd Class" motto, but I have not seen any other examples other than the one you just shown, so I will continue to wait and see what others come in with. Hopefully.

Tim

I wanted to add; Detlev may be correct, I honestly do not know at this point on the case, so by all means, if anyone else knows one way or the other, please let me know. I may try to contact the seller on it if need be. Cases can be added over the years by just about anyone, so... :unsure:

Using Guy's excellent site; I think this is a Simple A, type 1.

Tim

The case shows "2nd Class", so not sure if the Article 4 had the same cases as the long service awards, but the case is fitted for this type medal.

Tim

Well, they aren't all that cheap. But, I guess you get what you pay for. Here's another one that I really like!

Tim

Hi James,

Thought the maximum amount of bars was 1 gilt and three silver for a maximum of 8 bars = 4 1/2 years?

Tim

Hi Peter!

Yes, I was beginning to think there might be virtually no action on this one. You know where the brains are on this subject, just wanted to see if there were any fresh minds/thoughts over here that might add to the knowledge base.

I'm getting ready to delve into the Kuban and Demjansk more after I pay off some other items. Still need a couple Krims, but they are specific ones I am looking for and you know the condition I like. Pretty much got what I am going to get in that area. The Maedicke was a good recent one for me; terrific condition!

Tim

Had to use the pumpkin! :P

Nice James. Any significance to the enamel crosses and such attached to the ribbon?

Darrell,

Just larger variations on the red cross for wounded personnel. Interesting that it has five silver bars vice the single bar in gilt.

I have seen examples of this medal that really have sharp details, but the majority of examples are well represented here IMO. Like Uwe stated, most are just not that impressive.

Here's another one of mine and you can see the separation of the ribbon colors towards the very bottom. Still, I don't see any bleeding of colors on these examples.

Regards,

Tim

Hi Roeland,

I have seen medals that show sharper details as well, but think a lot of this is attributed to actual wear and not the "coinage" per-se, but you may be correct in that there may be a certain model or maker that had some really great details to their products; I think personally, it's just wear on the die or medal itself. In my example, the light reflects a lot of the detail away; not the best PIC in this case. I have seen those that have a sharp, almost 3D, defined strike and they look great!

As far as available material used; I do understand the medals were made post-war, but material shortages would still be evident for sometime afterward IMO, and rebuilding the countrie's infastructure would seemingly take priority over frivolous items like medals. Again, just my opinion here, but I would rather have the brass, aluminum, steel, and whatever else used to repair and rebuild what got destroyed first. You can't cook or eat on the ODM's.

As far as maker's go, you're guess is as good as mine. I am trying to get some of that information as it relates to the different Fire Cross medals and, as you say, there are no books or much information out there to determine who made what. Add to the fact that its been almost 100 years now and most of the related facts probably long gone. I have seen several pieces in a wide variety of cases/boxes and still not sure they actually belong together. A good case in point would be the Order of Leopold I's I've seen.

If Wolfer's is attributed to those Leopold I's that have the "I" on the reverse, then what reference did we use to determine that? I see several that have that "I" and are cased in boxes with every other name out there (i/e: Fonsons; Degreef; unmarked; and even Wolfers). So, at this point, whats to say pieces were not put together for sale? That's exactly the case in Japanese awards where cases from one era are matched up with medals from a later or earlier period in order to sell it as a complete "cased set". I think in some instances, the sellers just don't know or figure its not important.

Anyway, any information on maker's and examples of their products would be a great addition to the knowledge base here, hopefully it will eventually come.

Regards,

Tim :beer:

"The details on the later ones are often also of a higher quality."

Hi Roeland,

Really? My experience has always shown that the earlier produced pieces were of better quality; in material used to fabricate the item; the level of details, as the dies were in better shape; and in overall workmanship (i/e: final finishing touches to any details).

In this case, the earlier brass items should be better than the later composite ones, but they may be worn a bit more at this point. I like my early brass pieces!

Tim

These medals were mass produced, different alloy combinations, and different manufactures. This is no surprise to me. Many countries did it throughout history. Every single one in my collection looks different. Well, this is my take on the subject.

James,

Yes, certain metals are always in demand in support of the war effort as any war progresses. That's why we often see a clear transition from superior quality materials to those of lessor quality; also seems to apply to overall workmanship or streamlining of the "process" as well.

Tim

Hi Thomas,

The Sacchini-Milano is listed as an official, type 1 in Laslo's reference.

Tim

Hi Roeland,

Not sure on the different makers, but there appears to be different base metals used. I heard the early ones were more of a bronze, where the later a slightly different mix? Not sure and I don't have good examples for comparison here, but of three Commemorative Medals I have, there are slight differences in finish.

As far as the ribbon goes, all mine are the same. I had to wash one as it was excessively dirty with black grease or dirt marks on it; really detracting. Once I washed it with warm water and a light hand soap, the ribbon is a bit faded in color, but the colors faded equally and I do not see any bleeding of colors into each other. The ribbon is the more coarse type.

Tim

Rob,

Thanks for that matrix; something new to peruse over! Now, take a well-deserved break and maybe more will chime in. I certainly enjoyed your posts and thank you for the wealth of information and help along the way!

Oh BTW, nice Portugese Vic! I still need to get another one with the star as mine is without. Always "something else" to get!

Darrel,

Nice to see you and your medals again; I think that star is referred to as the "Mons" star on the WW1 British War Medal. They are not common and an item I am still waiting to add myself!

I like your American Vics as well, especially the 1st and 4th Div. pieces!

Tim

Okay, let me ask again...

I know there was a bronze and silver but, was there also a gold version? I had assumed that the bronze was for enlisted and the silver for officers, but have heard gold was for officers?

Any help?

Tim

Thanks Rob!

I had read somewhere that some of Nixon's numbers were off, so I was curious.

Tim

Hi James,

Yes, a bit pricy in my mind as well but, I have no idea how valuable a reference and how sought after it is.

I don't buy too many books anymore, as publishing costs have made many of the new books on militaria just too costly for me. The German WWII area is my case in point, great books coming out, but none are under $100. plus shipping.

I could see "the investment" in say a good solid reference on a particulary rare and expensive item and the reference provides a in-depth study on various maker's, markings, die flaws, etc., along with fakes and what to watch out for, but for common items, I will save the money and use the forums and experience of more knowledgeable collectors. More money for the collection!

Tim

Thomas,

Those minis are outstanding in detail!

Rob,

Is the clasp matrix listed in Laslo's 1st edition the same as the Donald Nixon matrix shown below?

Tim

Pin reverse with the crimped script pins showing. Any idea on the pin?

Tim