Tim B

Center:

Thought I would put up a couple more Leopold II for review.

Here's a knights class with WWI swords. The center & enamel are different from others that I have and I have to ask again if it's only manufacturer differences, or is this a indication of time periods where certain style lions and colors of enamel were used?

Tim

Well, not 100% sure this is where it belongs, but it came in the same package. What do you think guys?

Tim

:cheeky: Careful Hugh, we're showing our age!

I think the use of bulldog clips for awards are fairly recent, as I didn't remember seeing them much until in the 90's. They have ones even smaller than the one I shown and are better still. So many little "office" improvements since then.

Tim

Hello guys!

Francois,

I think the dual pin setup on yours is the typical French/Belgian style mount we see on most of these awards, is it not? If the pins are brass, it might be a modern medal or replacement pin as I think the old ones were steel?

Hugh,

Many thanks for those thoughts as it was along those lines that I was thinking as well. A single needle-style pin would not hold the medal in place very long and would be easy to dislodge if too much moving around IMO. I was thinking this piece might be an award presentation medal used by local awarding authorities for ceremonial presentations/photographs.

As you noted, the presenting officer wants to present the award, pin it on the member and move on to the next person or part of the ceremony. I was also in the Navy, and over the course of 23 years watched everything from the presenting officer fight to pin the medal on using the actual pin, to finally this "bulldog clip" setup. The presentation medal belonged to the personnel office and was returned after the ceremony. The member was then given their medal (in the issue case if applicable) along with the award citations and folders after the presentation.

A lot easier to present, as the medal was already made up, ready to go. The presenter simply pressed the clip and attached it to the underside of the left breast pocket flap or collar if no pocket was available.

Tim

Hi Guys,

I haven't had time to sit down and retake any PICS yet, so hope these will do for now.

Tim

Okay guys,

Give me a bit to post some front/back PICS and I'll get back to this one. So, by the comments, I assume there are identifiable die traits that distingush one model from another?

Are the British made ones more "rare" or hard to come by?

Tim

Guy,

Thank you! Now, I just have to figure what belongs in the box, which probably could be anything as the box is unmarked in regards to contents.

Love4history,

That could be, as this particular package had two different type Fire Cross, a Liege Medal, a separately cased Leopold II (Civil with gold center-striped ribbon), and a WWI Belgian Commemorative Medal with 4 bars (1 gilt & 3 silver) and gold volunteer crown. So, maybe the commemorative medal goes with that one?

I did see the name on the one box (thought it was something like "Winston" or "Sir Winston ???", but just couldn't tell for sure.

Thank you gentlemen!

Any other observations?

Tim

I understand this medal was originally for WWI prisoners that escaped captivity and retroactive for the Franco-Prussian War and later included WWII.

Is there anyway to tell by construction, namely the attachment pin style, when this one might have been made? I never seen one like this.

Tim

Again, not even sure if they go to Belgian or French awards? Appreciate any help.

Tim

This is the personalization on the other box (diamond shaped padding):

Here's some personal writing on the bottom (same box):

The gold seal; I can't make out what the lettering is.

I recently got several Belgian items in and there are a couple of boxes that I don't know what they go to; maybe not even related to the items I received and maybe not even Belgian. Any help?

Tim

Here's the boxes; the one on the right has diamond-shaped padding. The other one has two blind holes on the inside bottom, towards the center and a gold colored seal on the inside top:

Hi Rob,

Well, I think I will eventually run out of different variations.

When we consider that until just recently, there were a limited number of known variations; 1 or 2 Type 1, 2 or 3 Type 2, and 1 Type 3, I think the most common ones have probably been shown from collections already or we would be seeing more coming forward here.

Here's an interesting item; based on Hendrik's site, I think its a cufflink. I have another one of different style coming in the last batch. This one appears to be marked De Graff on the inside.

Tim

Hi Rob,

I believe you're correct, yet another slight variation!

I just received two more today, one Type 1 and one Type 2. I'm still waiting on one more Type 2 and have two more coming in a couple of weeks (1 each) and all of the pieces are different from one another.

One of those coming is very similar to your's but with the differences you called out above.

Wow! How many variations are there, I wonder?

Tim

:lol: Why doesn't that surprise me! You're a lucky man Paul.

Yes, I seen a lot of beautiful pieces on that site.

Tim

Hi Dieter,

As long as your not spending a lot of money, I don't think you can go terribly wrong collecting these. They seem to be popular space fillers for many collectors; certainly a few interesting varieties.

Here is the front PIC of a supposedly original piece that sold on a high-end auction house a couple years ago. I can't find a reverse PIC and may not have one.

Tim

The border on originals should have only chrysanthemums and not anchors or stars or ???

Another observation;

You can see the second bar I posted has both silver and bronze stars on the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal (of which there were 48 official campaigns for the Navy/Marine Corps). The first bar in question may have a couple of stars hidden under the ribbon, but does not appear to have many stars overall and IMO, may indicate a later entry into service vice someone who had active duty prior to WWII.

Tim

Here's one of my old bars that I've had for awhile. This one has the American Defense Service Medal w/Fleet bar and you can see where the 20 years are accounted for.

Tim

Hi guys,

I've seen different combinations of WWII bars before and this one looks good, but with 20 years of good conduct recognized, then shouldn't this bar have either the American Defense Service Medal or the National Defense Service Medal as well?

- American Defense Service medal: Active duty between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941.

- National Defense Service Medal: Created in 1953 for service during national emergencies and retroactive for the period of June 27, 1950 to July 27, 1954 for service during the Korean War.

Twenty years service would have crossed one of those two periods depending on whether the sailor was active prior to WWII. I can understand why there is no Korea Service Medal, as you cannot be awarded both the Navy Occupation Medal w/Asia clasp and the Korea Service Medal for the same timeframe.

So, if he started service in say, 1942; twenty years service would take him into the 1960's at least. Keep in mind, back then and up until the late 1990's, the Navy awarded good conduct medals at four year increments. So, the medal plus four stars = 20 years.

Opinions? Did he just not decide to mount the National Defense Medal? Would seem unlikely with approximately 10 years of service remaining after the medal would have been authorized.

Tim

Justin,

Here's an example off my Officer class.

Tim

SUPERB!

Justin,

Look on the reverse, at the suspension under the wreath, for any markings (example might be a diamond) and also under the bottom of the star, where the wreath bow is tied. Might be an indentaion that resembles a boar head or other marks. Search LoH's here and you should find a good thread or two on maker's.

Congrats!

Tim

Hi James!

Well, kind of nice to add something instead of just asking others questions all the time; glad someone is getting some use here. I should have a couple more in a week or so and can better compare once I have them in hand.

I figure we can use this thread more as a workshop and once those variations are identified and maybe properly labeled, we can run a better thread or have an database type area where they can be used for reference.

Tim

Okay, I'm done for awhile on these. I started out on the Fire Cross as I figured I only had three to really get and maybe a couple of variations, but it appears there are at least 3 Type I; 3 or 4 Type II that I know of so far and luckily, only 1 Type III (some refer to this as a narrow Type II).

Still cheaper than German stuff!

Tim

OH! BTW... I showed a Type 2 version earlier with the slanted P & R in "SUPREMA". Has anyone ever seen this particular style mounted on a bar or in a collection that has 100% provenance? I am being asked. Thanks!