Tim B

and the reverse...

Here's the silver one from NMM.

Sharp design with the dueling dreadnoughts. :cheers:

Here's another sharp looking commemorative medal from WWI. Lord Kitchener was well known for his services in the Middle East (Cyprus, Palestine, and Sudan). He received the title of "Lord" after leading the British Army in taking back the Sudan and was declared a national hero for his efforts. He was later in the Boer War, Commander in Chief in India and Military Governor of Egypt. By coincidence, he was on leave when WWI broke out and was appointed Secretary of War. He's the guy you see on the recruitment posters of WWI telling men to join the army. He died in 1916 while sailing onboard HMS Hampshire when it struck a mine on it's way to Russia.

The bronze medal was recently auctioned on ebay and is the first one I have seen. I could not find much information on this commemorative medal, but did find a silver version of it on the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London website (photo courtesy to NMM). The medal looks almost identical but note the details are a bit sharper except around the edges where the details appear to fade away.

I think either the dies had changed or been reworked at one point or a completely different die was used between the bronze and silver versions. Even the bust looks narrower on the silver medal.

Tim

:P Another shot of the 2nd class award without the rosette. Makes a nice pair I think. :beer:

:love: I really love the black enamel on these early ones.

Tim :cheers:

:cheers:

Recently picked this one up.

Very nice, but I can see where at one point in time the swords must have been attached on top of the rosette instead of the top as they are now.

Tim

Here's another nice Officer class Leopold II; this one is post 1951 with the bilingual languages. Note the gold crossed swords. I read conflicting statements on the gilt swords for officer grades; one says officers were gold and another said the plain swords were strictly silver (WWI). Any clarifications??

Tim

WOW, Tim I'm speechless. Where did you get such image, or have made it yourself?

Like in Military Museum

I think too that Orders of Partisan Star is outstanding award in terms of design and expressiveness.

Thank you.

w

These are actually listed on ebay currently. The guy is trying to sell each one for US $120. or best offer. On another listing, he is selling the entire group. I think $120. is too expensive as you can get these off major dealer sites for less and the soviet made ones (which are better quality) as cheap as $40. if you look around.

Yes, the PIC is nice and I really would like one of these, but not for $120.

Tim

Yes, you have to be careful what you're looking at as there are so many types out there. I bought this one sometime back. Seller claimed it was WWI and obviously it's not as it has the bilingual language on it. Note the suspension is more rectangular than the round "ball" shape that would be accurate for an earlier piece. I believe this one is either a modern (current) issue or perhaps from the 60-70's. Live and learn--key emphasis on the learning part!

At least the seller made it right and sent me a WWI piece later, free of charge!

Tim

Well, they are still out there, though some think they are worth their weight in gold!

Tim

James,

Appears you were correct, here is another on a Yser Cross that has the same fourragere and tip.

Tim

So a Palm on this Order (and on the Order of Leopold) basically means a promotion within the Order, right?

I guess I am going to have to review the palms again. I thought the palms on orders were for recognition (mentions in dispatches) during wartime? Or is that only for the Croix de Guerre?

I ask as I am getting ready to replace a palm on my Order of Leopold (Officer) and have got a gilt Albert palm on hold for me.

Tim

Here's a example of the enamel differences; the one on top is mine (pictured above) and the bottom is another medal that I see being offered. Note the background pattern.

Tim

Questions:

1- The central gold stripe on the ribbons, are those for heroic acts during war?

2- The 2 crosses at far left, are their centers black?

Francois,

1) The center gold stripe on Belgian orders were for civilians that distingushed themselves during wartime.

2) I think the centers are blue, but probably a really deep or darker blue.

Tim

Thanks guys, my take on it as well.

James, I did not know these were cast and that makes a world of difference as cast items tend not to bend and have the high probability of cracking or completely breaking off as you stated. I wouldn't need to move it much to get the star out, but then I would want to close it back up after the switch and.... I would be really P***** off at myself if I screwed it up, especially seeing it is in such nice shape and cased to boot!

I can live with it as is; it's nice!

So, do we have any further information or examples to look at that show the differences in regards to timelines or dates of manufacture? Enamel, suspension differences??

Tim :beer:

Hi Francois,

I had asked that very question in the other "Question on Leopold" thread. I have noticed others for sale that were like that as well, so I don't know the answer. I agree, it would seem obvious to place the seam towards the reverse. Unfortuantely, the only way I could "correct" it would be to open the seam a bit and switch the actual medal around, then rotate the ribbon. Seems thick enough that I probably wouldn't break it; hopefully. I was kind of waiting to hear something first as if this was normal (happens), then I would leave it alone.

Tim

Francois,

I do not know how to date these Orders of the Crown and have only heard that the enamel is different. I have noticed that some have a recessed pattern under the blue enamel, while others appear plain. I have seen slightly different tints to the blue, but am not sure if that is attributed to the PICS or actually are different shades depending on manufacturer or date of manufacture.

I do see one difference between the suspension of mine and the one you show. Perhaps someone can chime in with more information?

Tim

Hello Francois,

The crossed swords simply mean that the award was given to a WWI veteran. Keep in mind that the award is one of the long service type awards and is given at different stages. So this Order was more than likely presented well after WWI, just to a WWI veteran.

The swords appear to be the correct style and color (silver), but should be pointed upward vice down.

FYI, there is more information under the recent "Questions on Orders of Leopolds" thread concerning the swords and variations. Here's mine:

Regards,

Tim

Hello Guy,

Excellent information!!

Tim

Well, instead of just always asking questions, I am going to try to add something to this thread that may help some collectors differentiate the different crown suspensions and thus better date their Leopold I Orders. If I make mistakes or omit any styles, please add comments and additional examples.

During my recent transition into Belgian awards, some observations made as I browsed the different sites lead me to believe the following information applies to the attached collage of various Leopold I Orders.

See the PIC for reference:

A: Order of Leopold I, Military Division w-Espagnol Style Crown circa.1832. Maker: Unknown

B: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Bombe' Style Crown circa.1839. Note how the crown widened at the center compared to the earlier Espagnol style. Maker: Unknown

C: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Gonfle' Style Crown circa.1845. Maker: Unknown

D: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Aplati Style Crown circa.1900. This is the style associated with WWI and WWII. Maker: Wolfers of Brussels

E: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Aplati Style Crown circa.1951. Notice how the ends of the crown have been flattened or squared off. This piece has the bilingual center. Maker: Unknown

Additional Notes:

- The crown styles appear to have remained consistent throughout each period for both military and civil awards.

- The (D) and (E) type crowns are very similar and may in fact be the same style with the differences attributed simply to different manufactures as I have noticed both styles occasionally with the monolingual ?French only? and bilingual ?French/Dutch? centers.

- These particular crown examples were taken off of, or compared to, current and previous sale items at various dealer sites and is presented here for informational purposes only.

Tim :cheers:

Tim,

You already gave the translation yourself : "A" (French) and "AAN" (Flemish) mean "TO" in English

Oh! That was easy.

Tim

:off topic: Well, I received the Albanian Star this morning and it is in fact the same Star as the one shown in previous post #154. Really nice! A very simple design and the star stands out quite bold against the gold. It's really massive too, not just in looks, but weight! I would venture a guess its heavier than the other stars by the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia but I haven't sat down and weighed it yet.

As I do not wish to take this thread any further off topic, I'll continuing comments on it over at the Albanian side.

Tim

My post got dropped...trying again.

I got this star in today and it is the same one as that pictured above in the last post. As nice if not nicer in hand and MASSIVE! This thing it heavy and though I haven't weighed it yet, think its heavier than the Soviet Red Star or OGPW Stars. Definately more than the Yugoslavian pieces.

Very nice and the seller still has some 1st class left. (Qty: ?) He has no 2nd or 3rd class pieces though.

I want to add that he also has one Soviet made solid gold one for sale. I have some PICS of it and its quite nice, but he wants $1000. for it and that's out of my price range for the moment.

If interested, send me a PM and I can send the PICS and forward the address.

Tim