Tim B

There doesn't seem to be much die differences other than the suspension hub and perhaps the slot brooch has a little more edge detailing extending out.

Tim

...but the edges are identical with the US Mint issue examples that come in the blue cardboard boxes.

Tim

This one is with the slot brooch...

Been quiet, so perhaps not much interest in the topic.

Anyway, here's another US Mint produced example that came in a paper packet of issue, something not commonly seen.

Tim

Hi Tim

Medallion excellent, very cool!

I unfortunately do not have that .. yet.

I have other coins and medals to show soon.

Personally, I like everything about the First World War.

lambert

Hi Lambert,

Yes, I like many of these commemorative "table medals" as well, the key is getting good quality examples without overpaying for them. Takes a lot of patience!!

Ran out of time this weekend but will try to post some more later today.

Tim

Excellent info and thanks for keeping it going!

Tim

And the reverse:

Hi Lambert,

That's pretty cool, first time I've seen that particular one issued by the Rio Mint.

If you look in the Coins and Commemoratives sub forum, you'll see other WW1 related pieces as well. I'll have to get my CD out later today and see which ones I can add here. I also have some file PIC's saved of items relating to the Victory theme that I can post for examples (items I occasionally keep my eyes open for).

Interesting that the common, French Verdun motto, "ON NE PAS" (they shall not pass) is added here.

For now, here's my PAX VICTORIS by the Birmington Mint. You can see similar themes here.

Thanks for showing.

Tim

Hi Lambert,

Yes, I thought I remembered seeing one or discussing another example in the past but, couldn't find anything in my searches. Was nice to hear it was okay and just an anomaly occasionally seen.

Tim

Okay guys,

I did ask Nick today about the possibility of selling in this sub-forum and he stated he really wants to keep all sales within the Sales section of GMIC.

I can see why here, as they already have a section to catch items like the Vic. The rules for selling on the forum are posted in an area applicable to all members and as there are always potential problems when deals go bad, they can be monitored a bit better if all listed under one roof.

Sorry, but I do agree with the decision and reason behind it.

Tim

I meant to get back on the issue of that open knob on the Vic posted in posts #12-14. I had emailed Rob to see if he knew and he responded that he had seen these before, though never opened up like mine. Thought it was a case of the knob being soldered on upside down, where the "cut" would have been on the bottom.

Didn't seem to have any real issues with the piece, so I am happy to learn/know that!

Tim

Hi Jim,

Let me ask Nick about that first. I have a feeling he is going to say no and keep all sales within the forum sale area, but I will pass the idea on to him.

Tim

Hi Gordon,

I'm not sure how each country established their awarding criteria but, in the U.S., the Victory Medal was just a service medal. It was awarded to everybody in uniform, regardless of position, location, or time in service during the period of entitlement.

So, a person that entered the service in 1918 and never left stateside would be entitled to wear the medal (no attachments) just as would some guy sitting in the trench getting shot at, though he would be entitled to whatever campaign clasps he took part in. As far as being wounded or killed in a service related cause, it's common practice for the U.S. miltary to award any and all service/campaign medals, along with any personal decorations, posthumously to the next of kin. So, for U.S. personnel yes, he would have automatically qualified for the Vic and any campaign or country clasp that applied.

I think the Belgian's viewed it along the same lines as well, if the man was wounded or killed, he automatically qualified for the Vic and WW1 Commemorative Medal. If he died, either his spouse or mother was entitled to wear the black enameled "mothers/widow" bar on the Vic ribbon and depending on the man's actual time at the front, he would have been entitled to bars that went on the Commemorative Medal denoting frontline service.

Tim

Morning Gordon,

The medal does display quite nicely as is, are you sure you want to change it?

Seems I have seen similar card backing on more than a few examples, was this common for the British medals?

Tim

Hi Bill,

Absolutely! I had originally thought we could add a specific forum thread dedicated just to the various clasp, MID's, etc. However, I reconsidered it, as most of those attachments apply to the US Vic and we might lose out on posting the other countries that have attachments.

Off the top of head, we would have these countries to consider:

Belgium: Mother's/Widows bar

British: MID

Portuguese: Frames and stars

US: Army clasps, both service and campaign; Navy clasps; Stars, to include the ones on service ribbons, maltese cross

Fantasy: French and US

Think I got everything here. Anyway, you can see the brunt would be US specific, as they have a vast amount of different devices to discuss. So, for now, I think it best to leave these in their respective countries. We can always break them out separately down the road if needed.

Tim

closeup of the clasp:

Hi Bill,

It appears to be a Fulford IIa type clasp. Notice the overall reddish copper color and the narrow silver backstrap. It also has the correct number of rope segments. According to Laslo, after all the production numbers evened out, about 7500 of these clasps were produced by Fulford.

Tim

I had posted this one back in the old thread on page 33, but here it is again for easier reference:

Hi Jim,

No, you're correct this is a Type 2. I was thinking they were all 3 MM in thickness and in fact only the Type 1 were measured this thick at the 3 o'clock position according to Laslo. So, I guess the only issue is why the knob got cut at some point.

Asked the seller and he claims he didn't even notice it, and I guess without lifting the ribbon, you might not. So..?

Thanks again Jim!

Tim

Very nice!

I'm hoping the prices eventually come down so I can add a couple more. The prices on these seem to go up and down a bit lately.

Tim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for commenting and breaking the ice on this one.

The line you see is really no more than a surface scratch in the finish on the ring. It doesn't go deep at all and appears more of a rub type mark.

With that said, that line does not go very far around and if lined up with the knob, would extend slightly past both ends of it. I can see where it could line up if the ribbon was folded back and the ring rotated to orient it to the knob. Or, it could be nothing more than a surface rub where the ring was in contact with the knob and this line formed over time.

I don't know but, I do agree that I don't see how one of these knobs would stress to the point of breaking as we don't see this on other examples that I am aware of, and if a natural break occured, it wouldn't be so straight IMO. I can't fathom why someone would deliberately cut into the knob, especially as the ring is not soldered?

Do you see any other signs of something wrong with this medal? What do you think about the thickness of the planchet being only 2.5 MM? Shouldn't it be 3 MM?

Thanks again!

Tim

But, has anyone ever seen a knob that was split/cut like this? I thought I remembered reading or discussing one of these sometime in the past but, I can't find anything in my searches today.

Some observations:

- The medal planchet appears struck and not cast. The details are sharp. The medal may have been cleaned but I can't say for sure.

- Measuring the planchet with a dial caliper, the diameter is 36.1 MM and the thickness at the 3 & 9 o'clock positions show 2.5 MM each.

- The suspension ring is split and not soldered. The ring split is cut straight across (perpendicular to the ring) and not angle cut.

- The ribbon, brooch, and clasp appear original.

Though I can't show it in a PIC, looping it, the inside does not show signs of cutting like a saw would leave. I wonder if the knob just split over time or due to some type of stress but, I can not figure why it would.

Thoughts?

Tim

The clasp. As far as I can tell, the lettering matches known original patterns.

That's done. Now, onto a different topic.

I picked up a nice US Vic sometime back with the Russia service clasp and wanted some opinions on it.

Here's the standard obverse/reverse and everything looks correct to me for a standard official type 2 issue, including Frazier's name.

Tim

Here's just an edited side by side comparison of the two.

I don't know, but I think collectors need to be watchful for these items. I personally would not want these in my collection, at least not as original issue items.

Tim

Here's the seven bar example. So many questions on this one!

Note the top two clasp are of this odd variety with larger stars and all the others are of the common issue variety. Interesting that the two clasps in question are very rare to see, especially on complete medals. Also, note it's missing the Defensive Sector clasp again and also has that bluish colored thread sewn to the top of the brooch instead of the official purple you should be seeing.

Now, as far as combinations go, unless this guy did a lot of transferring between commands, I don't see how this set-up can be legit? Was it common for soldiers back then to transfer between commands like this?

Tim