cimbineus

Hello cimbineus,

Posted below is a photo of an award given to an Italian High Ranking Officer (unfortunately, I don't know the year of award).

I know that the photo is not clear (it was taken in a museum through a glass) but if possible I would like to know if you can establish if he received the 'ORDER' or the 'CROSS' of Merit ?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Best Regards

Lilo

Hi Lilo,

I am very sorry, but the quality of the picture does not allow me to tell you for sure what it is. The difference is very narrow between those two. If you hold either of them in your hands, you can say immediately which is what. Nevertheless, my best guess is that in the picture we see "CROSS", issued before 1935. (But, please, remember that it could be awarded up to the late 30s!!!)

Regards,

cimbineus

Gents,

Regards,

cimbineus

Lobsters don't fly to Hungary very well.

Thanks, but no I did not misunderstand. The medal itself that I own has a different hook system-but ALSO look at it and compare it to some of the others. The definition is not as good and there are some other minor differences. I always understood that to mean it was a later made fake.

Your ribbon today has started its long journey to you ...

yayyyy!!

So, were there different production runs of this medal?

Thanks! :cheers:

No, there was just one type of medal, and produced just ones. Basically, there are no variations as well, except some miss-painted ones, where during the production the workers mixed up the colours on the flags. :-)

cimbineus

... Cimbineus is telling you ... that the ribbons on your 1848 Commemorative medal were not the correct ones but were very similar ribbons that used on a different medal after the end of the HUPR. IE post 1990...

Yes, exactly! This is the case! Those are also real, existing ribbons, but for different medals.

... A question. When did they stop using the wire hook on the ribbons and start using the aluminum hook as is show in the early posts on this thread....

Gordon,

There was no exact date even exact year when they changed the hook. It came into existence gradually, step by step from the early '70s, but the old hooks also appear time to time even in early '80s. From mid '80s already the great majority of hooks were the new ones, as far as I can recall. And one more thing. In some cases, although the order or medal was produced and awarded in the '80s, it could happen that they had quite an amount of earlier ribbons and they used them up, while in other cases already the new hook existed.

Regards,

cimbineus

Thanks!! Do you also think that our medals are reproductions?

No, the medals are NOT reproductions. Those are the authentic original ones.

Gents,

It is not too pleasant to bring the bad news, but unfortunately sometimes someone has to play the unpleasant role of this kind as well, like me now.

No, Gents! The question in this case is not the type of hook, or anything else, or its material, or the weave stile etc. These two ribbons (Ed's and Ulsterman's) are simply not the correct ones. Your ribbons are recent ribbons from the Ministry of Defence recent Merit Medal 1^st Class (or Merit Medal in Gold previously). These new ribbons and the original ones are totally different not only in materials, quality of the work, appearance etc, but in the type of the so call national colour "wolf's teeth" too, at the edges of it. Just compare them, please. Here is a picture:

But now comes the good news for Ed and Ulsterman. These two correct ribbons in the picture are spare ones and I am ready to present those to you, if you accept them and if I receive your addresses in a PM.

Regards,

cimbineus

Very nice !!!

Thanks ilja 559, (прасибо большое)! All the other branches will follow!

And here is my branch, the God of all wars, the artillery:

"But, nevertheless, I think this is my (our) mission to spread knowledge. And we will do, I hope..."

I am with you there, my fellow small-printings brother. WE will "soon" be gone from this planet, but the "things" will remain and people who aren't even born yet will be glad that WE did the research work so they don't have to, when sources available to us may also have been lost. In many ways, a book is as enduring as the Great Pyramids of Egypt-- and yes, the authors were the slave labor!

YOU are the Kivalo badges author?

Any chance there's any copies in english out there?

Yes, my modest personality. But, sorry to say, there is no chance at all. All the 300 copies were snaped up in weeks, in Hungarian and in Hungary.

... "WE are responsible for the fact that Gallipoli Stars are now going for $250". If we had just shut up ...

Let me react on just a tiny aspect of your substantive contribution. Yes and yes and yes! What else can I say? You are fully right and correct, my friend. This is the usual scenario. If you share knowledge, you educate people. Breadth of view means more interest, and more interest means higher prices. This happened in the case of my book on "KIVÁLÓ" badges as well in Hungary and elsewhere. After publishing it in 1997, the prices on "KIVÁLÓ" badges doubled or even tripled in some cases in some months. But, nevertheless, I think this is my (our) mission to spread knowledge. And we will do, I hope…

cimbineus

"KIVÁLÓ" badges in motor/transportation troops:

"KIVÁLÓ" badges in infantry:

Gents,

Tomorrow, 23^rd October is the Hungarian National Day. We celebrate the 53^rd anniversary of the Revolution of 1956. To mark this day I decided to share with you an arty picture taken from an extremely rare Hungarian order from 1947. (There were 16 awards made only!)

cimbineus

Cimbineus -

thanks for the additional information. I wonder if nayone has seen a VV or S stamped piece of material? I would assume that these would have been more rare than the AVH stamp...

Well, as far as the "S" mark is concerned, I think, nowadays it is almost impossible to see a single object having that mark. The reasons are obvious, to my mind. If the leadership of the plant was lucky, they had the chance to correct their mistakes. They took back the product and eliminated it as quickly as they could. In other cases, products marked with "S" served as evidences before court-martial and were eliminated after the process.

Hello hunyadi,

Good stuff, congratulations! This is an interesting study. Just a modest contribution from cimbineus:

Main Quality Control Department: K Központi (= Central)

Clothing Warehouse: R Ruházat (= Clothing)

Health Institute: E Egészségügy (= Healthcare)

Animal Health Institute: A Állatorvosi (= Veterinary)

Cartography Institute: T Térképészet (= Cartography)

Vehicle Warehouse: G Gépjármű (= Motor vehicle)

Train Warehouse: V Vonat (= Train)

Technical Engineering Warehouse: M Műszaki (= Technical)

Signals Warehouse: H Hiradó (= Communication)

Weapons Warehouse: F Fegyverzet (= Weaponry)

Ammunition Warehouse: L Lőszer (= Ammunition)

In addition the designation for the Air Force warehouse was given the same designation as the Ammunition; "L"

Formally, of course, you see the same "L", but the meaning is different. Here "L" stand for "Légierők (= Air Forces)

...but with the addition of the letter "E" which meant that the item had been "controlled"

"E" here stands for "Ellenőrzőtt" which, as you said, means controlled.

The only letter I cannot see here is "S", which was to designate the totally unusable end-products (Selejt = refuse or spoilage) and usually provoked serious consequences, quite often the dismissal of the leadership of the plant or even imprisonment.

cimbineus

Gents,

Here is a photograph showing this medal.

Regards,

cimbineus

Cimbineus - was this symbol used on the elementary schools only? My earlier assumption was from a medalion that I found which had the symbol in the center, but it was for an Building Engineering School? Thanks for straigtening this one out!

Hello Gents,

These symbols, the book, the triangle, the bows, hammer, the quill-pen in different combination appear relatively often on badges and medals of those times, especially in connection with different sciences or education. So, one can meet those on different badges and medals for educators, innovators, inventors, pupils and students, jurists, journalists and some others. In some cases these symbols appear on the badges and awards of certain organisations as well, but usually those are also connected to the above mentioned spheres of activities, so, theoretically one cannot exclude that these symbols could be on badges of some schools too.

These symbols prevail on the badges and medals of one specific organisation of the early '50s, i.e. "MUNKAERŐ-TARTALÉKOK HIVATALA" or "MTH", ("OFFICE OF LABOUR RESERVES"). Although it was not a ministry, but all its competences were equal to ministry level decisions. So, de facto it played a role of a ministry.

Regards,

cimbineus

cool! So the "grade" depended upon ones' scholarly performance? did the gold go to children who got high scores?

There was just one grade, this gilded medal, but because of the poor quality you basically can meet only severely worn down medals. It is a relatively rare medal, I have to say.

Interesting!! So this was a student's medal?

Elementary school at that time meant the basic and compulsory education from 1 to 8 classes for children from 6 to 14 years. In Hungary we called them pupils. This medal was to acknowledge their achievements in the learning process.

cimbineus

... and some ribbon variations:

And here are some backs too:

Hi Richard -

As memory serves me the central theme is the "coat of arms" for the Architects "Guild" - or Epitesz Mernok (Building Engineers) - From the date and the style (like the Order of Merit of Hungarian Freedom) - I am making the assumption that this was for awarded for rebuilding after the war.

No, Gents, this medal has no connection either with architects or with rebuilding the country. This is a medal which was instituted in 1949 and awarded until 1952 to elementary school pupils younger than 14 years. This is the "FOR EXCELLENT LEARNING" medal. Here is the medal with the metal strip on its ribbon, which says "JÓ TANULÁSÉRT" = "FOR EXCELLENT LEARNING".

Regards,

cimbineus