IrishGunner

Despite Serbia giving up its demand for access to the Adriatic, 100 years ago today the London Peace Conference ended as the Balkan states and the Ottoman Empire were unable to reach an agreement in negotiations. Hostilities resumed.

Did this failure suggest that diplomatic efforts were not sufficient to avoid further conflict?

Interesting bar with the bows...

What do the bows represent?

Well, I must say the Hollande has really surprised me!!

Larry

I understand why you say that Larry, But regards Mali, this is not a surprise at all. Well, the timing is a bit of a surprise, but not the action. Hollande declared at the beginning of the New Year, France would not allow the rebels to push any further south and would intervene in Mali to prevent any threat to the capital (contrary to what Chris posted above). It has been well known since the UN authorized intervention by ECOWAS late last year, that France was ready to be involved militarily in Mali as well.

Hello mates!

That s easy. The photo was taken in Marburg. There was the 11th Jäger-Bataillon.

That bataillon became part of the 4th Jäger-Regiment (together with Res.Jg.Btl. 5 and 6). That regiment belonged to the 200th Inf.Div. (Karpathenkorps). The 4th Jg.Rgt. was set-up 4.July 1916 under Lt.Col. Lehmann (Jg.Btl.9)

So, my first guess was correct!

Also saw one of the Karpathenkorps badges for sale the other day - no idea if it was original or not

Guess French military activities in northern Mali today help answer your question...

Just a guess, but seems like a "war bond token".

The United States government issued liberty bonds to raise money for its involvement in World War I and there was an aggressive advertising campaign. Tokens like this could be given out at rallies.

Well, my friend, at the risk of over-dramatizing the event, today (8 Jan 1913) is the 100th anniversary of Serbia giving up its demand for access to the Adriatic, including the port of Durazzo (Durrës), at the London Peace Conference. And perhaps the only issue that might have sparked a broader war 19 months earlier than it actually did erupt.

The Albanian territories were claimed by Serbia in November 1912 after defeating the Turks at Kumanovo. At that time, Austria-Hungary actually mobilized three army corps in Galacia along the Russian border and three army corps near Serbia in order to put pressure on Belgrade to give up the territory and prevent Serbia from almost doubling in size. Tsar Nicholas II told his Council of Ministers that he wanted to mobilize three Russian army districts – Kiev, Warsaw, and Odessa – in response to the Austro-Hungarian mobilization. Whilhelm II gave assurances in Nov 1912 to Vienna that Germany would back-up Austria-Hungary; however, as pointed out above, the Imperial military convinced the Kaiser the time was not right for war in Dec 1912. Also in Nov 1912, French premier Raymond Poincare assured the Russian ambassador that France would back up Russia. As in Berlin, The Russian Council of Ministers convinced Nicky to back down, which some historians argue gave Vienna the impression that Moscow would give in easily to military intimidation, leading to perhaps a false confidence in August 1914. So, as also pointed out in the posts above, the other Great Powers were not ready for war at this point; Germany, France, and Britain successfully maneuvered the belligerents into the London Peace Conference. As part of the initial negotiations, the Great Powers pushed for creating an independent Albania rather than allowing Serbia to control the territory. We shall soon see that the armistice expires before concluding a peace treaty and hostilities will resume, but the biggest concern of the Great Powers - that is Austria-Hungary - is resolved; Albania will not be under Serb control.

One thing that I haven't read in any published history, is exactly why Serbia backed down on its demand for access to the Adriatic; historians only note that was their demand, that Austria-Hungary was willing to take military action to prevent this from happening, and that Belgrade gave up the demand at the London Peace Conference.

This is key I think to understanding why these first "Balkan incidents were local, and no reason for such a reaction" as war as my friend states above.

Stay tuned...

Very, very cool... You should drop by the "The Great War 1914 to 1918" forum and add to the discussion on the impact of the Kaiser's Panthersprung!

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/56754-the-balkan-wars-1912-13-as-prelude-to-the-great-war/

Some moderator fix the title. There is an extra "e."

I thought your teeth were simply chattering...

I don't think "France" is less willing... I think you have to look to the policies of French President Francois Hollande. You recall he also ended France's role in Afghanistan a year earlier than other NATO countries - and what France agreed under Sarkozy. Hollande seems to be taking a much more measured foreign policy approach than past French presidents, even perhaps "multilateralist" in nature. He also has been called out for his lack of foreign policy experience and this may be in play somewhat as well. And of course, he's much more focused on the Euro zone issues. Not to mention - reduced budgets for military/defense.

On the other hand, France is leading the intervention effort in Mali. Of course, that has a multilateralist vent with the UN Security Council approving the French-backed resolution to authorize the deployment of an African peacekeeping force for an initial one-year-mission. But French special forces are likely to lead any military operations agains the Islamists and Tuareg rebel forces looking to establish their control over northern Mali.

I think CAR just signals that it's not "automatic" for France to intervene in Francophone Africa has it has in the past...

New moderator? very good! Congratulations then

Regards

Lambert

Yea, you guys have been "unsupervised" long enough...

But why wait for something better when a smoking gun is detected?

All good points, but I think you are getting ahead of the game. Indeed, that may have been what was missing in 1912-13 - a real or even fabricated Casus belli.

If something like Sarajevo 1914 had occurred during the 1912-13 Balkans Wars, perhaps that would have pushed the very willing Austrians and Germans into war - dragging along the Russians et al in defense of the Slavs etc etc. While the 1912-13 Balkans Wars showed there was growing willingness to go to war over national interests, there was yet to be a real or perceived threat to those interests for the Great Powers. Add in the fact that some parts of their military establishments didn't feel ready (insufficient naval or mobilization resources), the ground was fertile for war, the seeds had been long planted and had already germinated in 1912 - however the sprout would still take some time though to break the surface.

I think the atmosphere around the 1912-13 Balkans Wars was sufficient enough to give "fair" warning that a larger conflict was in the near future - but rather than the Great Powers taking steps to avoid it, I think we will see over the next 19 months, that they were indeed looking for the right moment to unveil the smoking gun.

The Liege medal ribbon does not have the national colours on the edge. If it is not a national award, why the ribbon edge and why the coat of arms?

I don't think the small threads of national colors on the edge "insist" it's a national level award. Something unofficial perhaps rather than a "local government." But, you do have a point about the coat of arms. Nonetheless... They are not very well done; so, I'd still be looking for something not at the national level. IMHO.

Too bad Hendrik doesn't have images to the agricultural medals on his site - that could help.

Welcome to the confusing, bizarre yet very rewarding world of medal bar collecting

I expected that to be the answer! But had to ask anyway...

The best I can say at the momment is IIRC the red and yellow are the colors for Liege!

Larry

Agreed. If it were a national award, you'd think it would have the black stripe as well.

Even Hendrik's site has nothing like this as an image. There are several "agricultural" medals referenced, but no images.

Nice bar...

A neophyte's question:

What regulated the order of non-Prussian awards; i.e. why the Hamburger Hanseatenkreuz before the Württembergische Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille?

By date awarded? Alphabetical by State? Was there a published order of precedence?

Martin, thanks for your comment.

We have several experts with on-going discussions about various nations' Victory Medals and there is a lot to learn in this Special Interest Section on these very prolific category of medals. As the new Moderator for the "Inter-Allied Victory Medals of the Great War," I'm hoping to generate some renewed interest by the broader GMIC community in the topic; especially as we head to the 100th Anniversary of the outbreak of the Great War in 19 months.

Cheers!

Even to my neophyte eye it looks strange...

My basic questions...

Why the Saxon medal after the Hindenburg EK and the Austrian WWI Comm (and then the Austria-Hungary PRO PATRIA at the end)?

Why the Austrian WWI Red Cross decoration? Everything else is "combatant"...

Shouldn't the Spanish Civil War Comm be at the end instead of the Austria-Hungary PRO PATRIA?

Ian, this is a great collection of photos, all of which seemed to be "farewell" mementos to Colonel Mario Marizzani. Unfortunately, I can't help you identify any of the officers further than what is written on the photo, but did want you to know at least one GMIC member is looking at them.

What research have you done already? Have you tried a simple Google search on any of the names?

I suspect any records may be long gone due to WWII, but perhaps something like ancestry.com could help.

No not horse hair - the black one was two black kinky (Afro) hair extensions, the white one is a Santa beard. Officer's plumes were buffalo or yak. Cheers George

I thought it looked like a Santa beard!

Odulf...an excellent summary of national interests of the time... And I agree with the key statement: "No country was ready for a war in 1912"

But your summary also proves my point. National interests were in competition long before 1914 and on a collision course. If the Continental Powers had been ready, my argument is that they would have in fact gone to war in 1912. They were willing - but not yet able for many reasons to which you allude. The conclusion to my supposition is this... Europe didn't rush headlong into war in August 1914, they had been preparing since 1912 - or even before, only waiting for the right moment. Because of this "willingness" in 1912 there is little that could have been done in this last year - 1913 - to prevent the inevitable. We can look at events over the next year - 2013 - to see if that supposition continues to hold any water - or were there opportunities in the next year to avoid the "inevitable."

I also really like that you mentioned Germany and Morocco. The Moroccan Crises - the first 1905-06 and the second in 1911 - are excellent examples of how the course towards war was set well before hand. The result of the First Moroccan Crisis 1905-06, in which Germany pushed Morocco's independence in hopes it would increase friction between France and Britain only did the reverse - sealing their deal on the 1904 Entente Cordiale - one of the alliances that left little room for maneuver in August 1914. In fact, both Germany and France moved toward mobilization in 1905 after the Kaiser visited Tangiers. Mobilization had already become a tactic in the diplomatic game of push and shove being played by the Great Powers. Germany's precipitation of the First Moroccan crisis then caused Russia and Britain to give up the "Great Game" and conclude the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907. Trying again in 1911, this time with gunboat diplomacy, Germany precipitates the Agadir incident or the Second Moroccan Crisis by sending one a ship as a sign of "support" for the Sultan and his rebellion. Of course, the "Panthersprung" only further solidifies the other powers against Germany.

So, we see - the national interests you describe were long in play. And only served to increase the urge to find the "right moment for war." These little incidents prior to 1912-13, were not sufficient - and war was avoidable. But after the Balkan Wars of 1912-13, all pretense of "avoiding war" was gone - the will was now quite strong - they only needed to wait for the "right moment."

Here is what I think the argument that often pops up that the allies were wanting and pushing for war....

The British non conscript Army needed almost 2 years from the outbreak of the war to get ready for proper offensive actions....

SURELY if Britain was expecting and hoping for a war, she would have introduced conscription in 1910 or thereabouts?

SURELY the French would have said... "well, we want a war, but are worried we will have to carry the first 2 years on our shoulders? We're not having any of it if Britain can't pull its weight?"

I think Britain never wanted war. But if the Brits had done proper analysis of the 1912-13 Balkans wars, they should have started preparing and by 1914 would have been in a different position. Or London should have stepped up its diplomacy to try and make war less inevitable. The others - Germany and Russia especially - were another story - war was on their minds in 1912. London just didn't see the reality and would have been in the same boat in 1912 that it found itself in 1914.

Ahhh... I had forgotten that thread.

Chip is not yet retired... has less time than you ;-)

A misconception about my being fully retired. I have indeed retired from active military service. But as of mid-October I went back to work at a full-time civilian job...

But once I get the War Room organized, I'll be able to much more efficently contribute to these threads, as I know I have some photos with helmet covers in my collection. Everything is just too difficult to pull out in its current storage mode.

I assume an independant arty Batterie 901?

Remember this thread? http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/41133-total-total-total-confusion/?hl=munitions#entry380548

After this discussion, and what I've seen collecting artillery regiments, I've come to the conclusion that 900s are all Munitions Columns.

Where is Chip these days?

So, from my short "research" the Karpathenkorps was the 1. Div (all Ostpreußische units) and the 200. Div (Jäger or Gebirgs units); so, knowing your "favorites" - I'd go with a unit from the 200. Div - but which one - I don't know.