Dieter3

The one I saw at a dealer was also engraved on the reverse. The name was largely obscured unfortunately due to somebody trying to scratch it away.

That really is unfortunate! That calls for a serious flogging in my book! Wish I could have gotten a look at the reverse of that one I saw at the RC visitor's center. Maybe next time can convince them to take it out with my powers of persuasion and overwhelming charm.... ;)

Document number: 8426

Recipient name: Murakami Hisakichi-san

Dated: January 9, 1941

Wound type: shell splinter hit at right thigh

Wow, even naming the location and type of wound? Fascinating!!!

It looks to be a mistake. The text shows that this is an appreciation document for monetary donations, not a notification of special membership. It is true that a man's name is listed, but even disregarding that, I don't think I've seen an appreciation document with a medal illustration at the bottom. I haven't checked my documents so I'm just going from memory here (and that is obviously faulty). I'll double check if I ever have time...!

Same here, I've never seen the illustrations used on appreciation documents - but I've never seen illustrations on any Red Cross documents except for the order of merit! They must have had a brief life. I'd be certainly curious to see any other documents with red cross medals on them like this.

Actually, bringing up the numbers opens up another interesting discussion. Between 1940 and 1943 the numbering system changed, as did the labeling on the award documents. Up to 1940 (and maybe later) the document would read, for example 'Number 150,143' (第十五万百四十三号). Note that the Japanese phrase used man 万and hyaku　百 as well as straight numbering.

And then it changed again - I assume when medals began to be reissued? The numbers all seem to appear at the far left of the document and continues to the present, and reads in the fashion "第XXXX号".

The number is obviously low, so at some point they started the numbering again, from what number they started I do not know. Also interesting (though perhaps not so important) is that the man 万and hyaku　百 are not used. This could be a case of just simplifying the document since the phrasing around the number has been shortened as well.

My guess is simplification as you suggest. Interestingly, the Russo-Japan War medal document also uses this simple scheme, and even mixes the old style of kanji for the numbers one, two, three in there! I don't think any others did, did they?

Not sure why the numbering would have been rebooted unless the numbers were getting so large that someone decided they, too, were getting too unwieldy.

Two theories - first, the records were destroyed so they had to? Second, could it have been such that at a certain number, let's say 2,000,000 for argument's sake, that any documents after that number would have the 2,000,000 already implied? But then, why don't we see documents with really, really low numbers - we should, but I haven't if either of these theories were true, but I can't think of anything else right now. I'd think that if either were the case, it'd be stated in historical records somewhere - it couldn't simply be an arbitrary decision.

All right though - you need the appropriate footwear to complete the ensemble! Any luck of that?

Fantastic topic! Sorry, I will be of ZERO use here as this is nothing that I collect (yet!) - but fascinating for sure, excellent analytical work!

Well, my wife pointed out that is was a man's name first, at least she thought it was, and she turned out to be right! She has issues with some of the really old stuff and reading kanji that are different now or no longer used, so I will often run things by an expert who can provide fantastic translations and is extremely knowledgable in Japanese military of all sorts.

Yeah, it seems like quality really began to sag during the war years - several (Red Cross) documents that I have from this time show these kinds inconsistencies - like you pointed out, the off-center cross! The paper quality seems lower, the documents are smaller, and other things too. It's like it took many years for the quality to come back??

It was suggested that perhaps the document was the only thing they had around at the time as a blank, so it was used even though the person was a man (no, I don't think your theory was possible in this time! ), and that the medal representation, also off-center, was placed there prior to adding the recipient's info. Or this was simply a mistake!! I t could be the bordering and image was produced prior to the text being layer down? Many theories as to why.

AWESOME!! Thanks for showing the new acquisition!

Looking for commentary on this one. A document for a donation that differs from the typical "Special Member's" documents - so why the representation of the lady's special membership medal on the document - and why a lady's medal when the person named is a man!!?? What am I missing here? I believe that the image of the medal was also added after the fact - I don't think it was part of the original printing - see how it is off center? Seems more like an after thought or something. The only other document that I have that is close in production date to this is from Showa 35 - an actual special membership document, but there is no representation of a medal on it. Very odd, and hoping somebody can make sense of it for me.

Oh yes, I got a picture! These are them:

Well, not being a government organization, I don't find it all that surprising that medals were still given, though I'd imagine under post-war circumstances, far fewer would be out there. Sure wish more documents were available for examination at least just to see the dates. I know this information is buried somewhere in the Red Cross literature and n their library (which is open to the public by the way) - just a matter of FINDING the bloody info! Unfortunately, a loot of the staff are volunteer and really don't know a whole lot, especially about medals! One young lady I interacted with there was at first less than helpful (surprisingly for a Japanese!), but then seemed to become somewhat intrigued if not perplexed buy what I was seeking. She was able to actually produce some interesting text for me, and she showed me the cased medal collection they have (post-war), though she admittedly knew very little about them other than they existed! Hey, it's not everyday you get a white guy walking into the Japan Red Cross asking about medals!

At any rate, by far the most intriguing piece out of the Japan Red Cross medals was the pair of Honorary Membership medals that they had. By far the most rare of Red Cross medals, and the only ones I have ever seen other than a photo in a book.

Anybody here actually have one of these?

We need more late examples with documents to define the later years, I think the low end is close, no earlier than the mid 40s, but high end? Hmmm......

Anyway, how about some photos of your new family! :lol:

Could be, could be!

There is a probability, that another type of rosette for red cross order existed with this attachment.

Usually you could find this rosettes in boxes for woman version of sacred treasure orders.

That would be the Type 4 (which simply refers to the attachment being a pin like this) - there could of course be variations of the attachment!

Actually I think that type 1 rosette for early order of red cross should exists somewhere. Of course it will be without pin and with white buttom. Will look something like that piece.

But I`ve never seen it.

Same here, never seen one, but it is a possibility. I am in doubt of this however because of that and also, how would they distinguish between the order and the special membership rosettes in that case?

I should also NOTE: in post #59, the pics. of the Type 2, Type 3, and Type 4 are all examples of the Special Member's rosettes, NOT the rosettes of Orders - these were just photos for examples of general design for the Types, there are other differences that distinguish the actual Order/Silver Order of Merit and Gold Order of Merit - I don't want anybody confused that is watching all of our craziness!! :lol:

Nice classification mate

Here comes my time attribution.

Type 1 (never saw this type in an order box) end of 19th century-1920

That's right - I only included this for a general conversation about rosettes - never find with Orders, just basic membership medals - you are correct!

Type 2-4 1930-mid 60s (actually I've once found type 2 in the box for (and with ) the first type of red cross order! (remember your discussion of this type you had with Josef?)

Yes! You will find all of these Types with the Orders - the problem is the time frames as you said - we'll get to that....

Type 5-6 1970-present time (type 6)

Type 5 and 6 have a distinction though - Type 5 belongs to the corporate orders, and 6 belongs to the more familiar men's and women's orders. I won't say Type 5 has not occurred with men and women's orders, but I've never seen them (only Type 6) - they are very similar, but obviously the attachments are different. I can only guess Type 5 was introduced at the same time as the corporate orders, post-war and went away when these went away. Type 6 - you could be right - 70's, but I suspect more 80's I believe that Type 2 was reintroduced in the 60s or 70s to be replaced by Type 6 in the 80s.

The main problem is precise dating of types 2-4. Type 2 could be found in all kind of boxes (wooden, lacquered and no-wood-god-only-knows-from-what-made boxes). Same may be true in case of type 3-4??? I don't know. But type 2 is very "scattered". We have no guarantees that types 2-3 (or even 4!) came exclusively from before-WWII period.

Type 2 - Has its beginnings in Meiji period and exists thru the Showa Period. (They are observed into, disappear, and then reappear all within Showa period, scattered like you said....)

Type 3 - Perhaps introduced during Taisho, definitely included in Showa era and pre-war, I think we do know that these had origins before the war.

Type 4 - Only Showa era, late-war (I think) and post-war we know for sure. I don not believe any examples will be found before the war.

I don't think Types 2 and 3 were exclusive to pre-war - these probably continued into the war and may have had overlap at some point with Type 4 - I still believe that Type 2 and 3 disappeared at some point during the war to be replaced by the Type 4.

I think that we all agree that this equality

Order manufacturer = Rosette manufacturer = Box manufacturer

doesn't hold. At least there is a huge probability that it doesn't hold.

That's why I don't like the idea of dating the orders by the rosettes (or boxes).

We couldn't even precisely dated every type of rosette!

Cheers mate,

Nick

P.S.

A piece of advice - get a life!

I know I know - looks who's talking!

You are right - precision dating is very difficult! But I do think certain generalizations hold true and that dating within a margin of error is indeed possible based on all of these features and other knowledge that we have. There are clues elsewhere that offer insights into dating of some of these items!

Sorry, I'm beyond getting a life at this point! ;)

Type II - What I like to call the button, with our familiar black disc base....

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-47268000-1319824220.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-92335600-1319824242.jpg

Type III - The stick pin - pretty bloody obvious!

Type IV - Button with a pin-back:

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-86817500-1319824524.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-00551200-1319824540.jpg

Type V - Arguably not needed, very limited - for "corporate" merit awards, silver and gold flavors, best I can tell, limited to this exact design, but not to be confused with the Type VI

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-31639800-1319824667.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-6375-0-78132100-1319824690.jpg

Type VI - Modern pin style for respective silver and gold Orders of Merit

O.K. Nick - let's have it!!

O.K., might be entering the realm of complete geekiness here. I do actually have a life, I really do, but you might not know it with some of these posts! O.K., Nik - this is for you....a new categorization scheme for rosettes.... (is this trip really necessary?? )

Not sure if this one even needs to be brought into the picture, but the basic members rosette, obviously only belongs to one type of medal, and only exists as ONE kind that I know of, though they do vary in size and color. But I guess for reasons of being complete, it should be included:

Perhaps we can refer to it as "Type I" Simple bow on pin.

Another classification? Do you really think my classifications are popular?

Look around. Check this out mate. Its only me and you . Nobody else around

Yes, people must think we are crazy, perhaps a bit too serious! But that's all part of the fun and interest for me!

Of course I`ll do it. Give me some time and I`ll need every photo piece you could provide.

O.K., give me some time - actually I think this will be easy.

I think its a synonym of cardboard and is used in case of multilayer cardboard (I think it should be written as a solid word).

Yes, it makes sense. I'm just not satisfied with this term since the cases are wood with a papery cover, and I guess they use a cardboard (pasteboard?) liner! Hmmm.....no, not satisfied at all, but I guess it will have to do for now.

You are real pain in the neck! That who you are! :lol:

Cheers mate,

Nick

Well, somebody has to be!

But don't you ever sleep my friend? It's over rated.... :lol:

P.S. We should get together in chart room one day mate. Perhaps today? At 1 o`clock AM (by Moscow time) and 2 o`clock PM (by SF time). Maybe even our collegues will join us. What do think?

I can try! But I am at work (I should actually do some...... ). My job has me in and out of the office, so not sure if I will be in office at 2:00PM but I will try!

Well, what exactly do you mean by "two versions of pin rosettes"....?? Perhaps we need to make a classification scheme like you used for the Sacred Treasure reverse, eh? Yes, there is a possibility that there is overlap with things like cases, and rosettes, of course! Especially as things moved towards simplification, and declines in quality. But I contend that the overlap periods would be very short, and somewhat hard to pinpoint, maybe within one year's time, maybe two at most.

For example - I have never seen either the Special Member's medals or Orders of Merit in the lacquer cases with a simple-pin type rosette - they are always the black disc type or the stick pin (typically) in the case of women's medals. These medals would date to I'm guessing the late 20s and into the early 30s, so YES! Agree with you that these buttons and sticks due include that time period. What I don't know is how far back to the sticks go?? The buttons go back to earlier awards for sure.

We do know that in the case of special membership and life membership medals that the sticks and buttons extended into the time period where cases became less elegant - what are called "paste board" cases (What the heck is paste board?) later 30s and into the 40s. It was somewhere in the 40's that the simple pin-back rosette came to be - and this is where you will have overlap of buttons and pins. Clearly, the pin-backs were used post-1956 - you see this in the special membership medals when they became "silver" and "gold" for sure, but probably before this too. Like I said from probably from the later war years, certainly the late 40s.

So - I disagree - that this is VERY speculative, it is not - it is somewhat speculative, but not entirely. There are gray areas, and there are givens - it's matching trends based on what we're given, filling in the blanks so to say. I believe that all criteria can be used to classify the Red Cross medals in general - cases, rosettes, colors, materials used, trends in quality. Yes indeed!! This can all be used in classification as it relates to period.

EXCELLENT! That one looks more detailed and the grip is different too. That ring looks bigger too - like perhaps it could accommodate an actual ribbon, no??