Dieter3

A lot of the changes will simply be due to a die change since the old die will have worn out and been replaced by a new one. It will not be a conscious decision to change the shape of the mirror or the angle of the wings etc, but rather differences in the way the die was cut. Hence, if the Osaka Mint keep records of when they replaced the relevant dies that would be a good starting point to identify how many different die variations could be out there for each order. Then the problem of identifying them in their correct time period will start, but knowing the number of dies would be an excellent place to begin.

Certainly worth pursuing. It might help to look for subtle changes versus the obvious or deliberate ones. I mean, I think we could safely say that a reduction of mirror size in lower class Sacred Treasures was deliberate, no?

One other thing that has me thinking too is why the heck the variation in ribbon colors with sacred treasures? Bluish, gray, white, yellow stripes, pink stripes....what's up with that??? :speechless:

I too follow the reasoning that the cases were probably made by separate manufacturers and then sold/distributed to the medal manufacturers prior to distribution to the issuing authority. I see enough "slight" variations in the Kanji on the lacquered boxes to say companies had several artisans doing this by hand.

Well, we know this is certainly the case for Red Cross lacquer cases - you actually find these often with the maker's info painted on the bottom! I've seen at least two different makers like this, plus the ones that are unpainted, so who really knows how many there were - but clearly multiple people/shops did this. Does it apply to other orders and medals? Likely in my opinion, but I have yet to see any of these marked as such!

My concerns would be to make sure the right case lettering matches the correct era medal. I don't think we can realistically expect more at this point.

That's the trick!

An interesting note on the Showa Enthronement Medal box variations. I have seen the black and purple versions and never took much notice of it, figuring different makers, but perhaps the color of the case signifies "who" received the medal; military, civil services, other, etc.

Tim

A very interesting theory! It does not seem out of the realm of possibility.

And it could be that all mint marks could have gone with every type of case! It would just be interesting to know if one type was limited to a specific case. The "M" marked medals do seem to be the rarest of the Showa Enthronement, but I guess that does not mean they would be necessarily limited to a specific case. I'd imagine the mint made the medal, and somebody else made cases - but I must beg the question - WHY black, purple, mixed colors? What's behind that?? We will probably never know - could it have been a way to know WHO manufactured a specific lot? I must say tough, that the UNKNOWN, while frustrating from a certain standpoint, also adds to the intrigue and enjoyment of collecting from another!

I think this is a commendable and extremely worthy undertaking. Rich, you are light-years ahead of me on anything like this so the only thing I can offer is only the tiniest bits of information that I'm sure you have already pondered yourself!

As you have already pointed out, the mismatching of medals and documents presents a serious issue. The only thing one can rely on, and this of course takes huge amounts of time, is to observe those items that are sold as "matched" sets and look for similarities in the components of the medal, rosette, case, and how they relate to the document's date - and compare to other sets. If a significant number of medals with specific design components consistently show up with similarly dated documents, one could with reasonable confidence state that a certain design component was utilized over a certain span of time. But since these come up less often than simply medals or documents, thanks largely to sellers breaking up groups, this is can be VERY hard, and like I said, take an extreme amount of time. I do try to collect photos of sales groups like this when I can for this very purpose but the collection is not large.

Another small clue might also be the design changes in the medal's representation on the document itself. I have not dived into this to much - but for the example of the Sacred Treasure, do you see a change in the shape of the mirrors over time? (particularly in the 6th class and higher) So - I've been led to believe that earlier pieces had more pronounced points on the mirror and that they smoothed down with time. Is this reflected in the document representations of the medals as well?

Photographs - examining these if dated, and many are, more evidence might be had - of course a photo could show a recipient with an award that he or she had received waaaaay before the photo was even taken, but you might be able to at least rule out certain design aspects occurring before or after a certain date. But again, how often to photos like this show up? Still, something to consider.

You are dead-on with regards to company records, mint records too if available - these must, if they survived the war, have design data, drawings, etc., I mean SOMEBODY had to make calls on these things, and it would have been documented as these details would be necessary for the production tooling.

Here is my brief take on a few things:

It may be best to start with modern awards and go backwards. Example, the order of the gold and silvers rays incorporates Philips screws as a design element. I believe it is safe to say that sacred treasures with these screws directly preceded the modern order. But just how far back do they go? Of the few examples I have observed that have been sold with documents, none of these go back as far as the war - however, some that I have seen that lack screws or rivets do seem to coincide with the later war years according to the accompanying documents, 1944-45. I have not seen enough examples though to make any definitive statements though. I would also pay close attention to other design elements like the hooks and catches, etc., - and how do these compare to either commemorative or campaign medals made during apparent similar time frames for the orders? Can comparisons be made? I mean, do orders from the WWI era share any design elements with say a 1914-15 or 1914-20 war medal for example?

Could other clues be found in the say metals used in the case hinges or latches? Was it a specific period in which all brass hinges were used? Textured or smooth latches, brass or some other metal? Essentially, are there any historical or cultural trends for use of one type of material over another, and not necessarily limited to orders and medals - can clues be had from areas of design and manufacture elsewhere?

The same thing goes for 7th and 8th class Rising Suns and Sacred Treasures - when the cases lost their latches - some of my observations (medals with documents) point to the late war years and post-war, which makes sense from a materials stand-point - yeah, it doesn't sounds like a lot of metal being saved by scrapping the latch, but you see this kind of action in late-war guns - sacrificing of parts on rifles, or simplifying a part to save just a tiny amount of metal from being used or design changes to otherwise simplify the manufacture since this was under such pressure. Seeing that the 7th and 8th classes would have been awarded in the greatest number, it would make sense to make the cuts here but still keep the higher classes to a higher degree of manufacture and finish. No enamel on the 7th reverse?? - Save time, save money?? Just don't know, it's all speculation at this point, and without documented proof of that, it should remain speculation in publications.

Was there not a period of time in which the government was essentially not awarding orders, into the late 50s or early 60s?? (I could be mistaken here.) It would seem likely that design element changes would happen at this point, when production resumed.

Clue to silver writing time frames at least may be found in merit medals of color - since these are dated on the bars, one could examine these examples for when changes from gold to silver and back to gold occurred. But can one parallel this to the Orders? Don't know, just a thought. And to say the silver was to conserve resources - bit of a stretch, but interesting that it does seem to occur within a limited span of time.

Sorry, I think I've simply asked more questions and added to the confusion than anything else!!! :blush:

I just re-read Dieter's last post about some sellers putting medals with cases that weren't with found together. Here is my opinion on that situation. Please tell me what you think.

1. Putting an order (Rising Sun, Sacred Treasure, Sacred Crown, Golden Kite, etc.) with a found case is not cool since there are obvious differences to the cases over time. Even a case that one suspects is from the same time period as the medal is a no-no simply because we really have little objective information about the dating of medals (other than some opinions, which is a subject for a different post).

2. Putting a war or commemorative medal with a found case is fine. Since these medals were made over a short span of time, the cases don't really have variants. (Some color tints appear different, but I think that may be fading.) Anyway, I think replacing those cases is perfectly OK without adding a disclaimer.

Rich - totally agree with you on cases for orders, AND I'd be certainly interested in opening up a dialog on the dating of these since it is so daunting. I'm 99% with you on the commemoratives and campaign medal cases, that 1% hold out is the desire for 100% pure, but you are right, the dates are clearly known, and the variants are few. Perhaps the one and only reservation I might have would be with regard to the Showa Entronement medal as there are several distinct variants (well, at least three - black, purple, and half/half, I don't know that I'd consider shading as a variant) and the varying hallmarks - the only question I would have would be whether or not all of the hallmarks occur consistently in all case variants, or would say an "M" hallmarked medal only be found in a black case? At the end of the day, does it really matter? Probably not, but for the sake of 100% historical accuracy it kinda does to me anyway.

But yes, I certainly understand reuniting a commemorative or campaign case with a medal.

Hi Rich,

No, in fact of the seller-members that I know here, none are guilty of such activities!!! While I have mixed feelings about public smearings, I can share information privately if anyone so desires.

Hi Rich,

Yes, instances of medals being polished (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself if you know what you're doing), actual enamel damage being repaired, not always with enamel, and then being sexed up for the sale, attempted ribbon repairs or cleaning (that didn't always end up so well if you ask me!), ribbon swapping, throwing in of rosettes with medals that originally didn't have them (I don't necessarily frown on this if it is the correct type, but it should be noted in a sale in my opinion), case swapping or adding a missing case and claiming originality. Attempted document repair even (tape, paper patches, "fixing" of damaged characters), though unless you're a conservator, why bother?

The biggest thing thing though is the mating of medals and certificates that clearly were never together, but then sold as a matched pair. Doesn't mean this doesn't happen on Yahoo! Japan, of course it does - but a little harder to figure out, but the ones that make it to eBay are clear in too many instances.

Sure, a lot of people wouldn't necessarily care about any of this, but purists certainly would, and I would personally never consider doing any of this to anything I would sell, just to make a few extra bucks, let the end-owner do it if they so wish. But I'm not a business man, I've sold only a handful of items.

On the whacky prices; of course the outliers need to be tossed from the statistics, but simply kept as a curiosity! I do find it very interesting, though it is nothing of real value. You're right - the less common pieces are more valuable from a data stand-point. Got 'em covered to the best of my ability!

Tim, very nice, I love it!!! Pics are not at all bad, very representative. Glare is the bane of us all, isn't it!!?? The only way I seem to be able to eliminate it is either from an angle, or with a flash from an angle that can deflect the flash away. It is very challenging (for me at least!!) to get really nice pics!!! The camera is a big part of it of course, but I just don't really know about photo-fundamentals, so I'm working against myself!!!

Lambert - very nice! Yes, I think you got this for a good price. I actually really like that seller too.

If it's in good condition, that is less than the average price! I paid $115.00 for one a few months back, cased, and very good condition. I think you did O.K.! I have seen folks recently though paying in excess of $140.00 for medals that are barely in fair condition - fade, ribbon abrasions, dirty cases.

Hi,

I just wondering what is the range for fair value of an Order of Sacred Treasure breast badge?

i see in some dealer is more than 1200pounds, isn't it too high?

and i'm curious too about what is the cheapest Japanese breast badge of an order?

Really depends on the condition - it's a bit high, yes, unless it was say a 2nd Class with a case and a rosette. A stand alone badge - just by the data, it is on the high side. For that kind of money I'd want it to be a ver clean, undamaged specimen. BUT - as we all know, they are worth what somebody is willing to pay!

Hi Kapten, check out Dieter's magnificent work on the prices of Japanese orders and medals.

It's the pinned posting in this forum titled 'Realized Prices'. You'll find the answers there, plus many more!

That I still need to finish!! Lazy me, I do have the data!

Anyway, watching and recording these common medals sell for a lot of money doesn't seem to be a productive use of time (again, IMO). What they pay, they pay. If a seller gets lucky and makes a few extra dollars, meh--that happens. The opposite happens much more often. Believe me. I have a lot of experience with the low prices and losing money. Actually, people tend to notice when things sell for a lot and think the sellers are raking in the money, but no one notices the medals that sell for $5 that should have gone for $30. Well, no one except the seller...

Any opinions? Was I completely wrong? Any comments welcome.

Cheers,

Rich

Rich, you do bring up some good and valid points! Believe me - you have no idea how much time I've invested in watching and collecting data on sales - I often scratch my head wondering why the heck I'm doing it! But I do think it is valuable in many respects - even the common ones - and it's not just the high prices - I watch ALL prices/sales, as many as I can (granted, these are limited to eBay and Yahoo! Japan, but I'd imagine these touch the vast majority of sales - there's no way to handle of course individual dealers, etc., etc.)

Several points - it will serve as interesting information at some point when price trends can (hopefully) be established in the distant future. Curiosity as well - a high and low selling price over condition, just as a matter of it being what it is, a curious data point, but really outliers and oddities - and I agree with you - based on 1) ignorance 2) not caring about the value of the money being spent (it must be nice to be able to throw money around in such a manner!

I would certainly hope that the data become valuable for collectors looking to buy - I certainly know it has helped me personally in several instances where I pretty much know based on condition how much money I can expect to have to spend if I really want to acquire something, allows me to set aside a certain amount +/- a few bucks. Plus, it gives an idea to a person as to how common a certain type of medal might occur for sale. I would also hope it might assist sellers, particularly the ones buying from Yahoo and selling on eBay, as to what kinds of prices they might expect to get, and whether or not certain things are worth selling. But perhaps not.

One nice thing that watching sales so closely has done for me is allow me to recognize the incredible amount of variation in pieces, and also recognize when certain sales have been less than honest, particularly when it comes to documents and medals that one would assume are "matched" when indeed they are not. I've also found plenty of instances of medals being altered between Yahoo and eBay, not cool. But without watching so closely, one would not know.

So, I do notice the ones that go for peanuts when they shouldn't - this is as interesting or more so than the ones that sell for sky-high prices that shouldn't either!!

Must stop spending money. Baby needs a pair of new shoes .....

Naaa.....baby needs a new Order of the Pillars of State......

NIce pair!!! Yeah, I wish I knew where this guy came up with all of his stuff!!!!

Brian, a very good point! The National Census medal will of course be limited in its following and popularity, especially given the two events that either medal represent! But WOW! $350.00?? That's high. Even the others seem a bit high according to that guide - granted, I've seen both medals go for higher - I'd be willing (but on the very outside) to pay those prices for an excellent to near-mint condition piece - but it'd have to be really sweet. I've never even paid the U.S. dollar equivalent of $75.00 for a 1914-15 CASED War Medal in good condition, let alone the 1914-20 medal!

I don't think we have even begun to see the tip of the iceburg yet. Sendai is the main city being discussed in the news but, there are many other small cities that were even closer to the epicenter and closer to the actual coastline. Plus all the little towns/villages and rural areas where people lived. I fear the death toll to go much higher.

Tim

Indeed. We're also watching NHK and getting a lot of the smaller stories and finding out more about the other places that have been affected that is not so highlighted in the mainstream reporting. Very sad indeed, the scope is beyond comprehension. Not to downplay hurricane Katrina, but this disaster makes that look like a fart in a mud puddle.

On a positive note, I did get a reply from gunjin - he's still with us, but has sustained a lot of property damage. John, thoughts and prayers to you and your family and everyone else affected by this. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Hi Dieter,

I guess we should be happy to have what we have at this point as prices will continue to rise. Starting to remind me of German areas of collecting.

The one single item that I never figured out is the WWI Victory Medal. We see these listed all the time, so you can't say they are rare by any means and I have a hard time even calling them scarce but, try to get one for less than $100. Doesn't matter if its cased or not or whether the condition is mint or worn...$100.+ or very close to it every time.

Then... I seen two for sale recently by a dealer that has his own site and also lists on eBay. One selling for plus $300. and another for over $400.!!! Talk about driving up prices.

Tim

You know it's funny - by my observations for the past year or so, the WWI Victory medal actually occurs MORE often than the 1st National Census medal which you can get pretty damn cheap in good condition. I don't know what the REAL numbers of issue were, but the WWI Victory is something I'd call common. These sell for more than the typical 1914-15 Campaign medal which I would call perhaps uncommon. It must just be the pretty colors, that's it!

I've said it before, I'll say it again - Buyers: Stop doing drugs!! ;)

Hi guys,

I've never experienced anything like this ... condo was shaking like the boat in the storm ... good thing is I am not in Fukushima area ... bad thing is I cannot reach any of my friends on the phone in that area

So, hope that they all are ok.

Looks like things going from bad to worse - I just saw the footage of the explosion at the nuclear plant there, but it sounds like the core is still contained. I do hope your friends are O.K. there, I know they have moved people out of the area. And glad you're O.K. too!!

I live down south in Fukuoka, so it is safe here. But I think John (ebay ID: gunjinantiques) lives in Sendai. I may be mistaken, though.

Glad you're safe down there, and I think you're right about John. I tried emailing him, but no response yet.

A good condition, but far from extraordinary Manchurian Incident medal - $113.50 on eBay a few days back......yikes!!

Again, I can't question the motives of buyers....but....but......really?

And a new record! - Another Manchurian Incident - good condition, but not extraordinary - it did have the wrapping paper, but not exactly uncommon with these.......ready for it.....???

$136.50

:speechless: :speechless:

I too hope our fellow members and their families in Japan are well.

Take care Dieter3 I hear these disasters may be heading your way.

Regards

Brian

Thanks Brian - we're all good here. We did have a tsunami warning - haven't had a chance to see any local news all day, but we were unaffected where I'm at. I believe at least one of our members is from Sendai though, got hit hard.

Certainly hoping all of you guys are O.K. after the quake and tsunamis - do check in with us and sound off when you can and fill us in on what's happening......

I have some items coming from Japan at the moment and I have promissed to behave myself (spending) otherwise I would be all over the framed specimen. Too many great medals so little money.

Regards

Brian

Ha! How many times have I made the same promise myself....famous last words, it's so hard to be good!!

AWESOME! I would really love to find me a nice Meiji-era any class Kite!! Fantastic additions to your collection!!

There is a framed one of these with case on Yahoo! Japan right now - been there for a long, long time, no takers at 6,000 yen! I haven't really looked at the pics. closely so not sure of the condition. It is missing the lapel pin, but most of them are, so I wouldn't let that stop me from buying it. They are not at all common, so I'm a bit puzzled by the lack of action on it.

Anyway, Brian, a very nice stand-alone piece nonetheless!

Awesome!

Awesome! Thanks for that additional info! I think I'm going to buy the design elements book tonight as soon as I get home! I'll check the other books too, I was just on his bio page at MIT. Very accomplished! There are times when I wish I would have chosen a different major, but oh well!