Dieter3

Apparently, the insert was dated 1944 - but I agree with you and surmise that it is an original duplication of an original! In other words, it really came with post-war medal as an example of what would have been with the originals, or perhaps intended to be with originals?? Dunno, but it seems to somewhat widen the mystery surrounding this intriguing award!

Now, I'm still a bit hazy on when changes were made to awards, like the lapel rosettes, etc., so let's see if I get this all right (Paul, help!):

Pictures 1,2,3 - Meiji Period

Picture 4 - Probably Meiji or Early Taisho

Picture 5 - Taisho

Picture 6 - Late Taisho/Early Showa?

Picture 7 - Showa (war years?)

Picutre 8 - Late Showa/Postwar

If I understand correctly (and God knows I may not! ) - Meiji pieces will have bow rosettes - and styles 1,2,3 - what I've observed have all had bows when rosettes are present.

Was the Taisho period a transitional one - earlier awards may have been with a bow, and later ones with a button rosette? This is my basis for pics., 4 and 5 - somewhat of a guess really, but of the 5 types I've observed, they have had button rosette, but of thinner construction and thinner rays. 6 is a bit of a guess too - but again, have observed these typically with buttons, though one with a bow.

I've always understood the silver kanji cases to be of the war years, not sure what span of years that is though!! WWII???

So - please, comments, corrections!!

From there, the styling changes dramatically - very linear and with gold kanji, single vertical column:

Enter the cases with some styling changes and silver kanji:

And lastly, the late issue, another slight style change, and back to the gold kanji:

Now, this next one could be my imagination, it is very similar to the 3rd one above, but I've notices a significant number of these in which the tails of the "eight" have an upward curvature as opposed to very flat. I'm guessing these are pretty much the same time period though:

Then there is this one, note some slight styling changes, but most prominent is once again the "eight" - looking more like two pinched lines. This is the last in which the kanji appear in two vertical rows:

I've been studying cases somewhat, looking for variations, there are certainly plenty! I grouped here what I believe to be the progression of the Rising Sun 8th class over time from earliest to latest. I'm not certain that I've got them in correct order, so feel free to comment/correct as needed! I'd appreciate input. The first one is what i believe to be the earliest variant, notice the significant difference in the kanji shapes, particularly in the 2nd row (left). The topmost swoops to the left, not the right as the rest of them do. Also note that 3rd kanji down where the "radical" is to the left rather than under as the later versions are.

This second one here has changed styles significantly - also notice the character for eight - the tails are fairly flat, but characters remain somewhat rounded, more fluid:

In this one, the characters start to become a bit more linear in their design:

What about the pieces with the screws? Which ones came first - the ones with screws, or the ones with nothing on the reverse?

Thank you! Yes, I've been watching this one. (Watch as many as I can!!) It's quite nice.

There was one this past week that I was watching too - that had an apparently original insert document - sure would love to get a look at it in person!! If any of my fellow forum members was the lucky winner of that auction, do contact me if you are willing to make a scan or photocopy!!

This one (sorry, it's blurry!)

Nice! I like these since they are not too hard to find with boxes, and often in really good condition like yours! And like most Japanese Red Cross medals, you don't need a second mortgage to buy one.....

I'm wondering if there was a corresponding certificate for these particular medals....???

In the hall next door, there will also be a 1000+ table gun show. Opportunities to spend money abound.

I only wish I could go!

Don't know much about it, but apparently an award issued by a company, Hisayakokudou (hope I got that right!) - a pharmaceutical company of some sort, so must be no accident that it is similar to a Red Cross Merit medal. Kinda neat, wish I would have bid on it! If anybody knows more about it, I'd appreciate the education!!!

YIKES!!

Let's hear your stories! I've never had any selling regrets (yet), but God knows I've passed up far too many things for sale where I figured they'd just end up being too expensive only to find they sold for prices I could actually have afforded!!

One that sticks out in my mind though was a really nice Boxer Rebellion medal, cased - pics. can be deceiving, but it was a very clean looking piece, nice case, no damage, not perfect - but nice:

Sold for around $350.00 U.S., not the cheapest I've seen, but I've not seen many for sale this nice that have sold for that price! What kills me is not only did I not bid on it, but the buyer ended up taking the case lid, and then it ended up back for auction, WITHOUT the lid. What a bummer, IMHO!

What are your experiences with passing up a sweet deal or parting with something that you shouldn't have??

Here's an order of merit document, early Showa, and what I can only assume is the tube it came in. Wish I would have bought it, it wasn't overly expensive, but I didn't for whatever reason.

and something I saw, forget where, but not sure what it is, something custom, cobbled together?? Paul?? Wish I had a better picture!

Nice! Thanks for sharing!

These are not mine, but here are a couple of pics. I have of some other medals/docs:

This is a nice set, but I don't think it is correct - the document is too old and the medal looks too new (at least to me it looks like an aluminum medallion, and if I understand things correctly, that case is a 1930s+ case). Paul, can you comment on this??

Honestly?? That's a question for Paul. I'd imagine the answer is yes. They do seem fairly uncommon, I've only got one myself from Meiji 22 (1889). Pretty good shape, basic member's, similar to yours, but different colors (no yellow!). I've only ever seen one document for a RC Order of Merit, but it was more elaborate, similar to the other orders with the image of the medal at the bottom center.

I'd love to see some more pics. of what people have in the way of red cross documents!!

The Red Cross documents are cool, and they don't seem to be too common either! (Which is kinda puzzling to me, the medals aren't exactly rare!....???)

I remember seeing this one for sale - the pouch seemed unique in that the interior looked to be an issue document - a document turned into a pouch! Am I right? Is this the one I'm thinking about?

I just can't believe it is another new year already. MAN! The time just goes by toooooo quickly. Not enough time, NEVER enough money, and TOOOOO many wonderful items to collect!

Well, you're right. I know you're not tooting your own horn, but you are right. I've only got a couple of items from you, but they are just as you described and not leaving my collection!

Cheers,

I echo that - the items that I have procured from Paul have always been no surprises, as described! We have a couple of other members here whose items I've purchased and same thing - I've always been pleased!

And....described as "Near Mint" - lack of hook, catch, abrasions, holes, black whatever notwithstanding.......I remain puzzled.

Am I just an over-criticla jerk??

"Poor" grade in my very humble opinion.

Described as "Superb Condition" - The front ain't too bad really, but never mind the black crud, abraded area, and lack of a hook on the back side.....

I mean, really??? "Superb"???

Maybe "Fair-" to "Poor+"

And now it's Happy New Year, and all that jazz. May the new year be fruitful for your collections!

Yeah, I would agree with that. For me anyway, the more historically connected a piece is (whether it be medals, guns, helmets, etc., etc.,) the more valuable it is, monetarily, yes, but more importantly mentally more valuable.

Obviously, with certain things pristine or near mint, whatever you want to cal it - is rare to achieve. With Japanese medals it doesn't seem all that hard really to find really nice pieces. Granted, my definition of "MINT" is just that - the piece is as it appeared or damn close to it when it was first made. Seen plenty of things for sale on "mint" condition - please sellers - read the definition!! I'm very hard when I grade things though, perhaps unfairly but that's me.

When I see people define things the way they do, I guess a lot of them are putting it into perspective based on age and comparisons to the average. Yeah, O.K., I guess I can see that. I just don't know about the whole "excellent for it's age" thing though - yeah, I can appreciate that too - but for the items in my own collection, I don't care how old it is - everything gets graded on the same basis regardless of age. I mean, why not? You can find very old pieces truly in remarkable condition simply because they were cared for, stored, handled in such a way that made them last as such. I also grade things on the whole package - if it's just a medal, then it is graded as that - if it is a medal, a case, a complete package, what have you - then it gets graded as the complete package - if the medal is excellent but the case is trashed - then it ain't excellent!! It might be fair, or good, etc.

Indeed!! I've noted how much extra value cases and even rosettes add to certain pieces.

While I do not know any Japanese persons that collect medals and awards, I do know Japanese that collect other militaria - granted, not in Japan as much of it is illegal, or otherwise very hard to come by. But these are items that really have "been there" - weapons sometimes with known histories or obvious signs of having been in battle, etc, or other items that have clear use - far more difficult to find pristine specimens. Medals?? I think that is a bit harder to figure - yeah, if something like this medal belonged to somebody and it could be proven, SURE! That changes everything.

Somebody might have worn it at some point, but it's really hard to tell, ain't it? Could as easily be a piece simply neglected by previous owner(s). Documents on the other hand, with actual names of meaning, etc., yeah, O.K., I'm with you! But there's also the flip-side - where people have really taken care of stuff over the ages, and it shows! Given one or the other, I'd take the nice one, all else being equal!

Again, individual tastes for different people!! No problem with that at all - but I'm just talking about things being described as something they clearly are not.