Dieter3

That is interesting. Now that I've checked things a bit more closely, Labar (Bayonets of Japan) does indeed reference a Finnish-use Type 30, and it happens to be stamped S361 - However, it is on one of the grips along with other marks on the other grip, and several marks on the pommel as well. It is a standard production Tokyo/Koishikawa-made bayonet though - all normal production T30 components.

I don't know that the Finn Civil Guard would have incorporated trainers, or that they would even have come across any when they got them from the Russian. Anything is possible I suppose!! You should post pics over on the Japanese forums at gunboards.com - if anybody knows, it will be one of those members without a doubt!

No help on the "S" - but it sure looks like a trainer to me, or maybe could be a Chinese-made copy. Prototype I doubt (at least it doesn't look like prototype photos that I've seen). Certainly not "standard" production Army issue Type 30, too crude. Have you test-mounted it to an Arisaka rifle?

Not sure, but Wikipedia is referring to it as 3rd Class, Gold Rays....

I still haven't seen Flags of our Fathers, but really liked Letters from Iwo Jima.

I think you mean a plain old kanji Dai. Hiragana is the phoenetic script so it would not be Dai as one character but two hiragana for Da I.

Correct!! Brain flatulence prevails yet again....:blush:

Ah ha! Thank you for that confirmation. I was looking at another item earlier today that made use of the plain, old hiragana DAI character in front of NIPPON, it made sense that it'd be this, but wanted somebody to confirm.

....until today....

http://mpelembe.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2009/7/23/4264348.html

With regards to the Imperial Seal in the center of the document, how is the 1st kanji read? I can't find it for the life of me. I believe the others are read as Nippon Koku Ji (correct me if I'm wrong on that last one!), but what is that first one above 日? Is it an ultra-stylized form of 大 by chance?

Did either of the men have descendants (that survived the war years, early and late)? They still have family today?

Mikasa Park is on my list of many places to go when I head back to Japan next year (hopefully....) - my poor wife, she's gonna be so bored! :rolleyes:

Sash! That's what it is. Thanks! I couldn't post all of the pictures here, but it did seem in pretty good condition. There were a few holes and abrasions in the jacket and pants, but overall looked really good. Not sure if it was original, but everything seems to go in a nice trunk that is part of the uniform, looks old. I'm guessing it was indeed stowed away in the trunk so the condition is decent. Thanks for the info guys!

What happened to the orders and medals awarded to these two men? Did they end up in a museum or other institution? :unsure:

Saw this today, thought it most interesting. I won't bore you with all the photos, but some of the items with the uniform really looked too good to be original, but the one thing that caught my eye was the belt, bottom center of picture. Or at least what I think is a belt, or some decorative wrapping. What's interesting is that it matches the colors and number of stripes of the Boxer Rebellion ribbon. Is there some sort of relationship?

One thing you must always be aware of: Dealers mix and match when it comes to boxes, too. Probably not much malice intended, though. I have been to an antique shop here where I bought a loose document and the dealer just took one of many presentation boxes off the shelves to put the document in. As for the boxes and tubes, I suppose most people think that one is as good as the other. So just because you find a Showa-era document with a box doesn't necessarily mean that they originally came together.

It's unfortunate that this is the practice, and probably an all too common thing. Malice or not, it ruins the originality. I would only say a box is as good as a tube (and vice versa) IF and only if it was original to the document. Actually, I'd rather have a document with no container than a document with the wrong one! :rolleyes:

One of the things that got me thinking are all of these auctions I've been watching. There were a couple of items that went recently, Taisho documents, a Sacred Treasure 8th and a Rising Sun 7th (same recipient) - the Sacred Treasure was in a wooden box and the rising sun in a tube. I didn't pay attention to the actual dates of issue, but I did see the Taisho kanji on the pics. of the documents. I know this sampling is clearly insignificant to infer anything, but wondering if maybe the late teens to early 20s of the last century was where a possible change over occurred? I've only seen a handful of these at auction, but it does seem the earlier items were in boxes and later ones were tubes - but it seems once again that Taisho documents are not as common as Meiji or Showa ones so not enough to go off for me as I'm pretty new to this.

Thanks for confirming on those lacquer cases - makes total sense - that'd be a lot of investment for every award issued!!

I would certainly love to see more of this kind of information assembled into a book...... (Paul, hint, hint...... ;)) !!!!

Anybody have any pictures of these buggers?

With regards to document cases -

I see from time to time documents with cases, the small wooden boxes or the round paperboard tubes. Am I correct in that from observation it seems that the wooden boxes are associated with earlier documents and the tubes with later documents? If this is correct, at what point was the change adopted? If that is not correct, what is the rhyme or reason? Did all documents have containment?

Seemingly less often, one sees the black lacquer ware cases. Was it the practice that the already-cased (box or tube) document be presented along with the award with these lacquer cases? It seems like a lot of resources for something already in a case, but maybe this is indeed what was done, or were these custom made by the award recipients/their families?

I guess I'm just trying to understand what came with what, when, and under which circumstances. Sorry for all the questions, but I must become as fully educated as possible. :cool:

It would be nice if the honest makers labelled them as reproductions somehow to dissuade any would be unscrupulous sellers from BS'ing a sale, or the unknowing seller/buyer from passing along a non-original as such.

I've not seen a ribbon bar for the census medals - does one exist, or would it not exist due to the not so military nature?

Both ribbon bars and the metal holders are currently being produced in Japan, the former in substantial numbers from what I've heard. I'm not sure how one would determine age.

Cheers,

Rich

Yes, please elaborate! Do you have any samples?

I'd imagine there are methods of determining age, but my guess is it wouldn't be even worth the cost and effort.

I'm willing to bet the holder is original. Did you look at it under a black light?

No, I didn't actually purchase it, I was just watching it out of curiosity. If illuminated with a black light, would one expect to see a lot of glowing due to presence of various compounds accumulated over time? Would a newer/fake not glow/not glow as much?

I wasn't totally clear on exactly what was replica - some or all of the bars, or the holder...?? I couldn't garner much from the auction ad other than "copy" which somebody confirmed for me, but didn't elaborate on what!

Having recently acquired a copy of Paul's book myself, I can say it is worth every unit of currency in which you might pay! It is a really nice book, a must for any collector of these types of items.

Excellent points, much more validity to the certificates from a historical aspect. The guns themselves have a much less traceable or known history for the most part, especially since records were largely destroyed. These medal certificates on the other hand by their very nature were able to survive similar destruction.

I know it would be A LOT of work - and probably not a lot of contributors, but what about the crackpot idea of maintaining a database of known certificates? The Japanese Forum on gunboards maintains a minor database for rifle bolts in the hopes of reuniting rifles with their all too often mismatched or missing bolts..... (Like I said, a LOT of work and a crackpot idea, but this was how a lot of information was garnered to produce the wonderful references available on Japanese small arms......)

Unfortunately you seldom see them together due to the nasty habit that Japanese dealers and collectors have of splitting up groups.

That is one thing that I'm torn on. Yes, for a dealer it makes sense to do this from a business stand point as one stands to make more money this way, but on the other hand, it is really kinda sad to see things that were originally together split up just for the sake of some extra money. BUT it does allow a greater number of individuals to have access to these pieces of history. There are several eBay items right now in this situation. I've been caught up in this myself, trying to capture as many items belonging to one individual as possible. Some things I've managed, others I haven't and it is a real disappointment when you can't keep things together. Like all of these documents above; they didn't all go to one person, but a few - so at least a few people can own a piece of Mr. Sukegawa's personal items and make that claim.

Guess this is a bit different, but it especially pisses me off when it comes to guns though - people whoreing complete, matched pieces just because they know they'll make more money that way, or because they don't want the hassle of selling a receiver/complete arm.

Oh well, that's life, that's business.

Sorry that my post above merely copied your original post. I'm not sure what I did wrong...

Anyway, your guess is correct. It is for the Manchukuo National Foundation Merit Medal, and this document was issued by the Manchukuo government. Note that Japanese citizens would also have received a permission document that allowed him/her to receive a medal from a foreign government. This permission document also named the medal that would have been awarded.

As far as I know, a Japanese citizen would have received both documents when being awarded a medal such as the one mentioned above. Am I mistaken? Or was it just the permission document?

Cheers,

Rich

Thanks Rich. And now that you've pointed it out elsewhere, it looks like this one also belonged to Sukegawa! Alas, the strong folds must have contributed to the 'only' ¥15,000 price tag.

Not only is the document rare, but it was also awarded to Sukegawa, therefore the high price. This document awarded to a 'regular' person would never fetch such a price, though it would still be pricey.

Indeed! NOw that you've pointed that out, I see the name. And indeed, all of these documents came from the same seller, no coincidence clearly! Sure would love to know the story behind how the seller obtained them! The items themselves are fantastic, but the history behind them even more so in my opinion!