Dieter3

Is it me, or is that suspension piece really wide???

Aha!

Thanks a lot Rich!

With such void stamping D indeed looks like J (or even like O)

So these are time marks after all!

Hurrraaah!

One less mystery on our hands!

P.S. Dieter gonna like this, since he always liked this "time marks" hypothesis while I was a little bit skeptical (to put it very mildly ) about it.

:lol:

But when exactly did they start? And I'm guessing that they ended in 2003, and then recycled back to "A?" with the Sacred Treasure. Seems like most modern pieces have letters lower in the alphabet, don't they?

So how long this two screws construction was in use?

Ten to one that until 2003.

But the maximum time coordinate that we have today is April 1994.

Take a look at this excellent 4^th class that was awarded to Takagi Yoshihiko on April 4, 1994.

100% Agree! The screws were used until 2003 - and continued onto the current form of the Scared Treasure. Why would they change from screws between 1994 and 2003 and then change back? Doesn't make much sense, so I think you are right.

Hi Martin,

It sure is interesting that the cases come in this variety of color combos! I don't quite understand it. I don't know if the colors are a chronolgy thing, or simply different makers and this is how the makers were distinguished? I would agree with you - I believe the black cases are most common and the solid purples are much less common. But the hybrid might be the rarest? I have one example of a hybrid case, and this is a "Y" marked medal. I do think different colors of case can be found for each of the actual medal makers though.

This one looks nice too!

I wonder where you are keeping all these (practically mint) medals ...

In a special separate building?

Fort Knox?

I wish I had a bomb-proof vault! Na, they are kept at home, but I do keep them in special conservation boxes that are subsequently placed into fire-rated safes. Call me paranoid.....

I just haven't gotten into the Manchukuo medals yet. Maybe someday. But it'd have to be a complete medal! What do the cases look like for these? Lacquered boxes?

Yeah, the box is a nice addition. It also has a finger hole in the bottom to push the case up and out of the box. Ah, the little details......

Quite possibly a different box maker. I totally forgot this picture of the lid label! I supose this might be a clue.... The others did not have labels, so not sure.

SO, do we have a flipper? Unhappy buyer? Or, is this the same seller - somebody didn't pony up the money for the original sale?

http://page5.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e138175869

Recent eBay acquisition. Very similar to the other one above, but interestingly, the case lid does not indicate the ribbon color. Otherwise, pretty much the same - though the hook and catch are a different type. Possibly an earlier vesion of the medal?

Newly arrived. I like this one, nice condition and with the box marked for 3rd Class:

A second Boxer addition. Not too bad, but not as nice as I'd like. The hunt continues.....

Late 50's thru 60's!

Everlasting doubts about my info ... Again?

And you are dating orders and boxes by rosettes and paper liners ... Again

No.

No. But certain trends, traits, and manufacturing characteristics can definitely be used for placing things into an era or time frame, don't you think?

Two months ago one such order (practically in mint condition, but without the box) was sold in Moscow only for $330

This is what I call sweeeeeeeeet deal

WOW! Only $330.00!! That is very sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

I believe that their composition was changed on August 12, 1941 from silver to silvered bronze.

As for the time of "change back" - no info

There is a VERY high probability that balsa boxes belong to the post war period (after 1956).

Remember that Golden Special Member medals have the same balsa boxes as orders

Yes, it could be the 1941 date, I don't have the newsletters available at the moment! But - given that these altered composition medals are found plentifully in wood cases, these wood cases would seem to date to that period, don't you think? ANd then their use continued on until......???

Yes, Gold Specials do have wooden cases - but let's not forget - so do silver special membership medals! And these are in distinct flavors - clearly earlier awards in cases with paper liners (like the merit medals), and rosettes that do NOT use the safety pin attachment - then the later medals - the gold special membership and silver special membership - in wooden cases without paper inserts, AND the rosettes use the safety pin attachment. And the kanji style on the silver and gold special member cases is the same style, and bright gold. There are clear differences between these cases sans the paper insert and the ones with the paper insert - that I contend are earlier cases/medals, and similar to the cases of the orders.

I don't think the wooden cases have a high probability at all of being post-1956! I could be wrong, but it seems pretty clear that the distinction between silver and gold was important, and the cases were marked accordingly. I won't say that some of them could not be from the 50's, but I just doubt it given what we can observe with the lower quality medals, and other medals we know to be pre-war, war-era, and post-war.

I know the price was strong but how many do you see? It is a far more attractive beastie and many times rarer than its Japanese counterpart.

Paul

Absolutely. It kind of makes first class awards of the Rising Sun and Scared Treasure look commonplace! HA!! You're right, very rare and very attractive. More attractive than the Japanese medals? Well, it's more colorful, but of seemingly lower quality and far less attention to detail. But that's just my humble opinion!

What happened with "after the war life was hard" theory?

The order fits very well to this "time pattern", don't you think?

By the way, the usual quality of pieces that we found in balsa (wooden cases) is a little bit higher (and I am not sure that they all came from 30s and WWII time period - actually I think many of them (if not all) might belong to the after WWII period)

Well, yeah! Life was definitely hard in the years after the war, but not forever! And during the war of course. But Rich has documented in one of his eNewsletters that (I believe it was 1942) - that medals were to change their composition. When they changed back? Not sure. These are very hard to document, especially given that there are almost ZERO medals with their award documents available!! I'm actually quite surprised at this given that these medals (merit medals in general) are terribly common.

Actually, the quality of medals found in the wooden cases varies - from good quality, to exactly that of the medals you show, in fact - by those I've collected and observed - more of the lower quality pieces show up in the wooden cases. Again, not all - but far more lower quality pieces than the higher quality ones. If anything, the wooden cased ones might date as early as the LATE 30's, early 40's (higher quality pieces) - and then the lower quality pieces started showing up in wooden cases as well. It is also possible that the wooden cases extended into the 50's and eventually saw the return of higher quality medals and fell out of use pre-1956 before the merit medal became the silver and the gold separate medals.

But at the end of the day, I simply do not know - what came first - the low quality medal, or the wooden case? If I had to make a guess - I'd say the wooden case, but it is pure speculation without documentation!

thank you for posting the pics - wish I had known about the auction

Yes, I was watching with eagerness as the price climbed, and climbed! Definitely a rare piece, but I was kinda surprised by the final price! Still, sweeeeeeet.....

Ok.

So what you should expect from replacement ribbons?

Let`s check out replacement ribbons for order of auspicious clouds (as example) from different manufacturers.

From russian vintage you`ll get this

The watering pattern looks so wrong!

Did you guys catch this one, I'm sure some of you did!!???

Just over $1300.00 U.S.

Medal - I'd guess mid-WWII to late 40s.

Case - 1956+

I'm suspicious that the medal and case do not belong together. This medal looks like many of those found in the wooden cases - lower quality enamel, and alloyed silver, or silver plate on top of another base metal, as well as the much simplified central elements of the obverse (no separation of features - they are all "connected"). It does appear to have a gold-plated appearance, but I think this is just the photograph making it look this way. The photo is dark so I can't see it completely, but the rosette appears to be that of a silver order, not a gold one. Also, the indentation of the suspension knob in the upper lid liner is inconsistent with the suspension knob on the shown medal, indicating that this is not the original medal to this case.

Or I'm over-analyizing and completely wrong.

Yes, it could be a cotton as well. I wonder why the selection of something other than watered silk? The medal is thick and bulky, so maybe the attempt was to marry it to a thicker, heavier ribbon?

Nice! I wonder what the numbers signify exactly? But I'd guess yours was made before mine!

Hi!

Right column = Taisho 8th Year (1919), 10th month, 21st Day

Middle Column = Sweeden

Left Column = Order of Seraphim (Medal)