Josef Rietveld

This is what i have been told.

The cross is a Rothe-copy. When you look at the crossarms-enamel you see the flingierung (pattern on the crosses surface)

is missing. see picture of an original

There are a lot of things missing: Producermark J(osef) S(ouval), dianahead (silver) and the R. Marschall for the crosses designer.

Seven years ago such a cross was on the market with a backside-engraving for Prinz Eitel Friedrich.

The good message: Even the Rothe-Copies are collected nowadays - so this MVK2 has some value.

regards

josef

Hello Gentlemans,

is this MVK II class - 2nd award with WD/Sw really original or later copy?

Marko catalogue - MVK with WD/Sw - 2nd award....only 5x awarded. Is it true?

I have seen picture of one original, but the green enamels in 2nd award are another design.

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/MVKII-1.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/MVKII-2.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/MVKII-3.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/MVKII-4.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/MVKII-5.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/MVKII-6.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/MVKII-7.jpg

Thanks, Xt.

A very strange cross:

- Frontside enamel and Verdienst appear normal.

- wardecoration (enamel) and laurelleaf-design are different to official issued pieces

- sworddesign = different

- complete backside = different

- the design of the laurelleaf indicating the second award is different aswell

- NO Hallmarks

BTW six of them were awarded My link

Have a look at enzos superbe collection (later in the thread)

I will ask a fellow collector. By now i don't know whre to put this special MVK you presented.

josef

Typ arround 1860 (left) and last type, both in Gold.

haynau

This seems to be a Commanders Cross. The Order of Milosh the great is seldom seen on the market.

I guess it will range somewhere between 2000 to 5000 euro.

jr

These two medals cover a soldiers life and his fate.

thanks for sharing

josef

Dear Gentleman, here a link to a IMHO brandnew copy of the large TWM.

EBAY

WHY:

- louzy enamel quality

- backside surface finish

- awfull overstamping

- quality of the Gazi sign

-casted thugra in my opinion

regards

josef

Hello,

many thanks to Josef for the precious data regarding the MVK II Kl KD/Schw. for 2nd award. This means that such decoration should be a rare one, also considering that surely more pieces were produced than awarded. My piece shows signs of wear, but honestly, I can't have any idea of the officer who wore it.

It's a pity that the pictures posted by cimbineus are not visible: they could be an interesting addition to this thread...

Best wishes,

Enzo

Dear Enzo, you have to check your browser (? ), on my screen ALL pictures are visible.

Thanks for showing cimbineus. As you sure know

the left case dates before the outbreak of WW1, the right one is post-1914.

Per 23rd September 1914 the one-class Military Merit Cross (with and without wardecoration) was recreated in three classes (I., II, III).The former Military Merit Cross became then the new 3rd class.

regards

josef

Hello,

the 1st type MVK posted by Josef, is a very fine example of this high-ranking decoration; being the piece complete with its original etui, makes the whole even more interesting and rare to see (btw., the etui with dedication from the Kriegsmappierungsabtlg. N° 6 due to its quality, is something a collector of dedicated/named pieces, would dream about).

Knowing the names of the 6 officers with the double award of the MVK II Kl KD/Schw., would be most interesting to us all, thank you!

Best wishes,

Enzo (Elmar Lang)

Dear Enzo,

the dedicated etui was a lucky hit at the dorotheum inside is a standard MVK 3rd Class KD. Normálly

I can't afford buying dedicated pieces.

Here the names for the repeated award of the MVK 2/KD (all with swords) which was established per February/23rd April 1918:

Oberst Rudolf Vidossich (27.2.1918)

FML Josef Hrozny Edler von Bojemil (12.8.1918)

FML Stanislaus von Puchalski (12.8.1918)

FML Aurel von Le Beau (24.8.1918)

FML Dr. Karl Bardolff (24.8.1918) - MMTO-knight, Pour le Merite, historian and writer, later SA-Oberführer, Reichstagsabgeordneter,

General der Infanterie (1939) but saw no active service during WWII lived from 1865 to 1953

GM Karl Soos von Badok (9.11.1918)

regards

josef

plus case

Dear Josef,

.....I knew that such double awards happened to MVK KD/Schw. only. Is that true? Looking at the green enamelled wreath, I see that it's composed of laurel and not oak leaves.

...

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

Sorry laurel leaves,

as you mentioned all six repeated awards of the MVK 2 were versions WITH swords.

If you are intersted i have the six names also.

I will give my small contribution to this topic. I have one single MVK 2/KD (Marschall, Maker Souval) but i will show my

1st Type MVK.

regards

Josef

Dear Enzo, this evening i have a bit

time to reflect on the breathtaking collection

of military merit crosses you presented a few days before.

What a pleasure to look at. I must have taken years to

bring them together.

What do we have here in the first picture:

A MVK 1/KDS (Wardecoration/Swords)

a MVK 1/KD (Wardecoration only)

a MVK 1/KD2S (Wardecoration of 2nd Class, Swords)

a MVK 1/KD2

another MVK 1/KD2S

a MVK 1

only 75 MVK 1 have been awarded to Fieldmarshalls, Central Power Nobility,

Central Power High Ranking officers. Seven MVK 1/KDS; six MVK 1/KD in Brilliants, two MVK 1/KDS in Brilliants

and 60 MVK 1/KD.

All possible combinations have been produced as Vorlagestücke but IMHO

only MVK 1/KD and MVK 1/KDS have

been really awarded. So Enzo, your MVK 1/Variants are Vorlagestücke?

They have the matching Marschall-Look. MVK 1 is a Reiter piece?

When did you get the Hötzendorf MVK 1/KDS ??

Then we have two nice MVK 2/KDS (different swordvariants) and one MVK2/KD

and one very special MVK 2/KDS repeated second award indicated by the

additional oak leave. Established in early 1918 they awarded only

six MVK 2/KDS repeated second award.

I like the old ones especially. Maybe we talk about them later.

Well Enzo that is really enough for minimum 3 collections.

Thanks for showing. What matching Etuis (cases) do you have?

josef

A real golden Medal from Huguenin was recently sold for 1249 Euro at ebay.germany.

My link

Thank you guys for your replays!

Here is my silver "Signum Laudis" but again... missing ribbon. Is there any unique details, what can help to determine period of produce; pre WW1 or war period. Then I would know which ribbons I need to look...

The silver signum laudis was created in 1911 - short before the outbreak of ww1- so there are no differences between pieces issued 1911-1914 or 1914-1916, except silver ones with BRONZE on the rim dating from late ww1.

The bronce one was issued from 1890 to 1918

josef

A similar ribbon bar with Turkish awards that got sold for 300+ euros:

Not bad, it was originally sold by the german auction house künkers 2009 (hammerprice 190 Euro)

josef

So this one would have an all solid red ribbon??

Lorenzo

Exactly, or the socalled red-white kriegsband (with swords for frontline service from december 1916) onwards) as mentioned before

josef

Found it!

After a quick research, this same cross should be the one sold for Euro 1.500,- plus commission (estimate price Euro 200,-) at Künker's sale of Oct. 2nd 2009, lot 8660, there correctly described as a copy.

E.L.

IMHO another Künker-Piece that was sold as an original

Ebay

KUENKER

josef

Dear E.L,

the pics ARE availlable you just have to click the links in the openening thread

regards

josef

Dear Iver, congrats, you have got a really rare box here.

josef

Hi Josef,

did you saw the bar in private collection?

For me the Finnish Liberty Cross looks like a German made piece?

Other Liberty Crosses from 1918 look in my opinion different....

Detlef

Hi Detlef, this bar was recently presented in the largest german forum. it came straight out of the woodwork and the new owner didn't even know all decorations

on the bar. So i have a good feeling that this bar wasn't manipulated at all.

The Liberty Cross could be a german made spangenstück but i'am no expert on finnish decorations at all-

regards

josef

IMHO the first one is ok, for the second one, the older issue i will ask another better informed collector for his opinion. personally i don't like it.

josef

I see clearer now. The second, older, Leopold-Order is a copy produced by ROTHE in the 1960ties. The made small

series for collectors as General UHL and Fattovich. But this pieces have a tiny mistake.

The motto reverse should be Opes regum corda subditorum but they wrote instead Opes recum.

Also the Flinkierung (pattern beyond the enamel) is done to rough. This pieces are known in gilded bronze aswell as in real Gold.

regards

josef

Hello, are these two Leopold orders originals?

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_1.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_2.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_3.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_4.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_5.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_6.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_7.jpg

Thanks, Xt.

IMHO the first one is ok, for the second one, the older issue i will ask another better informed collector for his opinion. personally i don't like it.

josef

Here is the pic...

IMHO there is nothing wrong with this bar. I saw it before.

josef

M & W St stands for "Prägeanstalt Mayer und Wilhelm, Stuttgart"... So i will say (second time ) its german

Sorry Iver I overread your previous posting

josef

....

Just one thing <<<groan>>>, sorry...the medals are all overlapping from right to left. From the EK2 usually everybody has to snug in underneath. The exceptions are when a particular (usually a cross) is sown down,....

Thank you for showing it. I don't believe it is impossible to ID; it will just be very hard. It would be more of a process of discounting possibilities. That LS cross should be helpful when you consider that there is no Centennial medal or overseas decoration (China, DSWA, etc.) I seem to RICall a Kind and great RESEARCHer who once said that it was important to look at what is not there, as well as what medals that are.

Thanks Claudius I will correct this and hope that some great RESEARCHER will once lift this mystery.

josef

Details