Josef Rietveld

Thx a lot gentlemen for your quick support

Cheers

As addition:

In my 1914 Army-Schematism he is listed as Oberleutnant in IR 41 (founded 1701). The only decoration listed is the socalled Mobilisierungskreuz 1912/13.

josef

Hello !

Some Franz Josef Order could be awarded with "Kriegs Dekoration", who is a green ribbon enamel, located on the insignia.

I ask me few questions about the location of this Kriegs Dekoration, depending on the grade of the order :

- Knight : ??? I have never seen knightcross with such green enamel...

- Officer : only below the crown I think.

- Commander : on the cross, below the crown ?

- Grand commander : on the star ? Something on the cross ?

- Grand Cross : only on the star or also on the cross ?

Thank you for your help !

Hi Pinpon590,

-Knight Kriegsdekoration only indicated by Kriegsband (Bravery Medal Ribbon)as saschaw already mentioned

-Officer till 1915 large Kriegsband-Rosette , then green enameled pendules (beyond crown), swords (introduced late 1916) are fixed directly on the pendules

- Commander, Kriegsband and swords fixed on the lengthend pendules

-Grand Commander, as commander, breaststar with Kriegsdekoration arround the star, and swords (if awarded) beyond Crown

Grand Cross, sash badge on Kriegsband, swords on lengthend pendules; breaststar as commanders breaststar

To make it even more difficult there existed the socalled kriegsdekoration niedrigen grades (lower grade war decoration) forinstens if somebody got first a knightsbadge with wardecoration and later on a peacetime officers cross. then the wardecoration of the knight is indicated by a green enameled ring arround the FJ-center medaillon. but original ones are very very very rare.

some few pics here FJO

regards

josef

I wanted to be a member, but for me it is a quite a lot of money, so i must think it over..

I have bought it from Austria, but not on Ebay...

Same to me. It is 150 Euros one-time-contribution and 60 euros annual fee. I think i will join them this year. There are so many members that i know.

gratulations you were able to cancel the kleindekoration-acquisition. :cheers

josef

..so the "kleindekoration" is already on the way to seller, he will give me my money back. He wrote me, he bought it in an auction of fy. Zeige in Hamburg, so he will return it to them. Once more Josef thanks for informations.. I was not sure about it (when I compared it with an original piece), therefor I wanted your (and Elmars) opinion on it...

That is good news. So i have no stress with the Austrian Phalersistic Society) I just mailed with the ÖGO and they told me that the don't give the password for the fake-site to non-members (unfortunately i'am no member aswell - but i will think it over).

BTW a seller from austria? (ebaynick: flie.......y)

regards

Josef

ÖGO

Dear Iver, i have sad news.this is what i have been told.

It is a copy. Experts recognise this instantly by quality of craftmanship (metall works, enamel) and thickness.

they told me that this copies come from a seller located in Wr.Neustadt(Austria)

exactly this type of copy is shown at the forgeries section oft the Austrian Phaleristic society (Österr. Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde).

If neccesary i can provide you with link and password.

sorry

josef

Hi Iver, unfortunately I'am not very firm with kleindecorations. but i will send the pics to someone who is.

regards

josef

Dear Naxos, the shown badge is called Österreichisches Reit(er)abzeichen. It is awarded by the the FENA = Bundesfachverband für Reiten und Fahren.

FENA

Unfortunately they have no picture of the badge on their homepage but i sent them the pics and the approved that this is the badge they award.

But you can find this badges with correct description Reitabzeichen des Bundesfachverbandes für Reiten und Fahren in Österreich on sammlerecke.at (collectors corner)

Sammlerecke

This kind of profiency badge is awarded in three classes (Bronce, Silver, Gold)

§ 1401 Österreichische Reiterabzeichen

1. Österreichische Reiterabzeichen werden in folgenden Klassen zuerkannt (vgl § 1400):

Österreichisches Jugendreiterabzeichen (ÖJRA).

Österreichisches Reiterabzeichen in Bronze (ÖRAB).

Österreichisches Reiterabzeichen in Silber (ÖRAS).

Österreichisches Reiterabzeichen in Gold (ÖRAG).

The bronce one is given together with the Reiterpass that proofs that you are able to go on horseback

in a proper way. Silver and Gold Classes are linked to sucess (Pointsystem) as competition rider.

History: I had a phonecall with one of the elder association members (Oberst Schuster). He told me that there existed NO austrian Reitabzeichen in the interwar period (1918- 1938). But there existed a kind of forerunner-organisation called "Österreichische Renn- und Campagnereiter-Gesellschaft" .

Campagnereiter

the riders umbrella organisation FENA came very late, together with new sport association laws into beeing. I phoned them three time but the were not able to tell me when the fena was founded. they guess (sic !) arround 1955.

regards

josef

Dear Ezo, really a nice bunch of eyecatchers.

Guten Rutsch ins neue Jahr 2010

josef

thanks

as an update: finally a Dicke Krone (Thick Crown) came unexpected across my way. The first one i ever saw in reality.

regards

Josef

Avsar, Thanks for your excellent explanation

Then the rosette, like in the French Legion of honor, creates two subclasses (knight, officier) within the Medjidie Order fourth class?

Regards

Not really. 5th Class has a silver center medaillon (thugra), the 4th Class and the classes above an golden center disc. IMHO though the rosette ist often seen with medjidie-ordes it makes no phaleristic sense. Using rosettes to differ 4th and 5th Class is much more logical

when in comes to the osmanie-order.

josef

as addition. an tremolierstrich on an austrian fork hallmarked vienna 1786

josef

This scratch is vermy common amongst imperial ottoman decorations and is called tremolierstrich. It álso wellknown for other countries silverware.

Always exciting to find, among its other marks is a Tremolierstrich assay or alderman's mark: a zigzag line left when a small quantity of metal was scraped away to test for silver purity. Since pieces which did not come up to standard were scrapped, the zigzag (or zick zack) line became a guaranty of quality

Source

regards Josef

I think that is pretty spot on. Do you know anything about the regiment and their actions at Wien?

Dan

The IR 4 Hoch- und Deutschmeister, raised 1696 and linked to the German Order (regimental chief), ist the viennese Hausregiment and saw action during WW1 on the eastern and the italian front.

In WW2 the regiment became with other units of austrian origin part of ID 44 (regimental sign was the red-white-red austrian coat-of-arms). After the annihilation of the Divison in Stalingrad it was reraised with Troops from all over Germany and called "Reichsgrenadier-Division Hoch- und Deutschmeister (1st June 1943; divisional sign was the Deutschmeistercross). IR 134 was given the name Hoch- und Deutschmeister after ´Stalingrad.

regards

haynau

This is one is actually running on ebay and is ok allthough it looks a bit golden.

regards

josef

reverse

sorry the pics.

Thanks for your replies.

Here are pics of the complete frock-bar. Unfortunately the 1st medal is missing, but i was told by the seller some years ago that the missing decoration was an austrian golden merit cross with crown (in real GOLD)on red ribbon.

sorryfor the delay, but I'am a little bit in a hurry today. that is also the raeson why i don't write a decription of the bars medal. the householdmedal is sewn to the bar. i was looking for hallmarks on the ring (VM or austria silver hallmark) but sofar i couldn't find one.

thanks for your interest

josef

thanks paja

are they rare? i dont want to sell it (the medail is part of a bar) but i want to know.

regards

josef

@mossop

what beautifull name-related set. coul it be that you got it from ebay germany?

josef

Kris......."I'm no expert but they look good to me.

The "K" makers mark on the Iron Cross indicates - A. E. Kachert, Vienna." It makes my angry to read such a XXXXshit! That's a textbook "KO" Ek,stamped under the catch! Unidentified maker so far!

A.E.Kachert...Vienna.Well,I'm sure you can tell where you've got this name from...You are not the user "Papsack" from the Militaria321 forum? Who is providing a new book?

BTW the makers mark AEK stands for Alexander Emanuel Köchert

josef

@mervyn, peter, Mike

thanks for your explantions. indeed a very collectible field.

another question to the regiments on this brooch (POWDG and Worcestershire Regiment) Are these regiments,

normal regiments, respected regiments or well-respected regiments?

thanks in advance

josef

details

Dear Forumites,

i recently aquired an very small bar with two british regimental pendants.

It is made of Gold and Silver and hallmarked for 375 Gold, Birmingham and the letter N for as i believe 1937.

Makers Mark is J.W.B that stands maybe for James Wiliam Benson?. A company from London.

The left one belongs to the 3rd Carabiniers (former Prince of Wales's Dragoon Guards.

I have no idea abbout the second badge showing the motto of the Order of the garter.

general question: who was wearing such bars? women or men?

are they common? i payed 50 euros for it.

thanks in advance

josef

reverse

As Austria beeing part of the holy roman empire till 1806 i 'd like to make this contribution.

1806 the former Emperor Franz II. Franz became as Kaiser von österreich Franz I.

this silver bravery medal reflects that changed situation and was issued from 1806 -1810

regards

josef