Dolf

Andrei,

Interesting article!

Just a couple of questions, I'm not sure I got it all right.

You say this couple of German intelligence agents were former Soviet citizens, then working for the nazis.

Were they the real Major Tavrin - Deputy Commander of "SMERSH" Department of 39th Army (1st Baltic front) and Jr. Lieutenant Lidiya Shilova - Secretary of "SMERSH" Department of 39th Army? Or just two agents using documents with the names of the above mentioned?

Or the names on the docs were also simply forged?

Thanks,

Dolf

Right.

If hit by bombs then where are the craters?

Dolf

935 is a high grade silver mark..

european mark, not Germany

they usually use 800, 825.

and not russian..

just a thought.

George

Thanks a lot for the clarification George!

So apparently it's made of good silver!

So not just a cheap fake I guess!

George, you collect TR awards, right?

What's your opinion about this pinback? If not German, where could it be manufactured?

Thanks again,

Dolf

I can imagine it being made in the DDR after 1945 for some Friendly Eastern Neighbor serving on occupation duty protecting the DDR. Maybe someone just didn't like screwback awards making holes in their pretty uniform?

Ed,

You mean a Russian/Soviet soldier having it done (illegaly, I guess) in DDR? I can only imagine what would have been the punishment if his superiors found out!

And if it was a replacement because he didn't like making holes on his uniform, shouldn't this piece have a S/N?

Dolf

PS: Btw, I just noticed this was your Post #3000 !!! Wow!

Many thanks for your fantastic contribution on the Forum!

Andrei,

Yes, you're absolutely right. With so many real Soviet awards available on the battlefield or from prisoners indeed it doesn't make much sense for German Intelligence to make such replicas!

The only reason I thought about that is that German style pinback! A mystery indeed!

Did you have it in your hands? Or you know in which material(s) it is made? Is the hammer and sickle real solid gold, or at least goldplated? And the main body of the order?

Anyway, the texture on the reverse pics doesn't look at all like the material used on original Soviet OGPW!

Dolf

Dolf, third picture was too big to be posted, so I resized it in Photoshop.

About mintmark I have no idea. I'm not a specialist in German awards...

Andrei,

Me neither, just what I see in other areas of the Forum. I mean it has some similarities with the makers marks I see on some pics posted by our fellow members collecting TR awards.

Maybe Dave's suggestion that it could be a replica made by German intelligence, to be used by some spy or secret agent makes some sense after all!

Anyway, this kind of pinback looks exactly like those on German EKs, as if it was made in Germany!

Maybe some member specialist on TR awards could help with this, including trying to identify the mark.

What's the number? 035? 095? Not sure!

Thanks again for the great pics.

Dolf

Andrei,

Thanks a lot for the detailed pics!

Btw, what is that mark on the pinback, on the 3rd and 4th pics? Looks like those German EK maker's mark!

Cheers,

Dolf

I don't know, I just wonder if this is what is usually considered a fake, with the purpose of deceiving people.

It seems to be of some quality!

Even if observing it a 2nd time, the obverse pic immediately reveals it's not a genuine piece, the hammer and sickle (especially this last one) are obviously wrong.

And with such a pinback, and no S/N, I just wonder if it was made with the purpose of deceiving, or if it was just a kind of replica that a jewller decided to make for some other reason!

Dolf

It is just that, from my research here in India, I have been struck by the constant and ongoing stream of requests for replacement medals. Replacement medals for the 1857 "Mutiny" (and even for earlier campaigns) were being requested as late as the 1930s. They were a real nuisance to the government and one reason they eventually decided to "lose" the medal rolls. I can't imagine that Indians lost their medals at a higher rate than anyone else . . . ??

And, by the way, it is Mr. Holmes and Dr. Watson.

Cheers

Glad your current research was an inspiration to help find a possible solution for this mystery

Well, I know about Mr. Holmes and Dr. Watson, I just mixed your real Dr. title with Sherlock's name

Thanks again,

Dolf

Ed,

Yes, interesting and very reasonable theory indeed!

Thanks "Dr. Holmes",

Dolf

I think the technical term here is "fake"?

Maybe, but all fakes I've seen so far have the regular screwback!

Dolf

The discription says that it is Russian Jeweler's made.

Alan

Like Dave said the quality doesn't look too bad, I mean at least from these pics doesn't look as just another fake or cheap fantasy piece.

Russian Jeweler's made makes more sense I guess.

I just wonder for what purpose, and why that kind of German EK pinback?!

Dolf

Thanks for posting this, Ron.

Much food for thought here.

Indeed!

Isn't that weird, Ed?

I mean, could it be an error at the mint (S/N too low, or S/N not matching the range it should, for example) and fixed at the mint? If so would they erase the original S/N that way, and let all those traces?!

Dolf

It may be that someone changed it to match a document that was later lost???

I guess we will never know for sure.

Oh yes, that's a strong possibility!

As it wasn't sold with a Doc I didn't think about that one!

Dolf

I doubt who bought it knows the serial was changed, as it affects the price greatley. It also has a fairly high serial for that variation.

Ron,

Just checked the main Polar Star thread, and according to our data specialists fellow members, it seems this number would fit in the range numbers for such type.

According to our data specialists this one would be what they call a Type 2. A T2.1? I mean, with this 1763 S/N, even thought it seems the original one would be different.

Notice that I really don't see why to erase the original S/N and replace it by a new one!

As far as I can check on the data list on the main thread, no T2 would have a S/N with more than four digits!

That's weird, I don't get it!

Myself I only have two T2, which according to our specialists should be a T2.1 with S/N 696 and a T2.2 with S/N 1617. Those were the two only variations I knew they existed when I bought mine, so with the current lack of supply I guess I missed the opportunity to have all four T2 variations

Dolf

Yes here is the front

Thanks. That confirms what I thought from a couple of details on the reverse pic

What's funny is that it still sold for that price despite the fact someone obviously messed up with the original S/N! Could this have been done at the mint, because of some possible error?!...

Dolf

Not 100% clear or sure from these pics, but it seems this piece was not converted from a screwback to this peculiar pinback. Instead it looks like it was originally made that way!

If it's genuine or not, just can't say! Let's see what the experts say.

Dolf

Even not seing the obverse I guess this is a A 32.1 (Uighur inscription), right?

Indeed, it seems the original S/N was erased and a new one added!

And unless I'm wrong I suppose the mint wouldn't do it that way, so...

Dolf

There are two links - for Part 1 and Part 2. Unfortunately they are not in PDF format, but in DOC format - regular Word Documents. However, pictures are available as well.

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform/p...28/chapter1.doc

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform/p...28/chapter2.doc

About translator, well, I don't use any translators, so it's hard to recommend something. But I belive you can find something searching the web.

Andrei,

Many, many thanks!

As for the translator, of course you don't need one Where do I have my head?

I know a few and use a couple of these from time to time, but I'm never happy with the results, so always looking for advice.

Cheers,

Dolf

That one looks just great from the obverse Even the mint mark and s/n doesn?t look so bad. Thats a really scary fake You just have to educate yourself, when collecting these orders and my next purchase will be Durov/Strelakov?s book about Red Banners. But if they improve their fakes as good as before, it will be very very difficult to spot a fake.

Gerd

Wow! These fakes are indeed getting better and better everyday!

But I guess I'd have some suspicions about this one, especially the obverse, because of some crude details on the surrounding wreath.

Anyway I guess you're right Gerd, if they keep improving (and it's obvious they do!) one of these days I just don't know how to spot a fake!

Dolf

This Durov-Strekalov book is available online for free. So it's even easier for you to translate the text. Just copy part of the text and paste it to your translator. BTW, this book is a masterpiece. I highly recommend it to everyone.

Hi Andrei,

Can you please post the link where it's available to download?

Works on Acrobat Reader?

Another thing, which online translator would you recommend?

Thanks in advance,

Dolf

Guess I need to find a good way to weigh my badges too . . . ???

My often-tolerant wife balks at being asked to take too many "snouts" to weigh on her super-sensitive biological research scale.

But this is close to being

LOL...

Yeah, guess she's right

Time you get your own scale

Dolf

I'm not even sure what these are made of, both bronze and brass are possible.

Fortunately they weigh about the same.

I looked up some info about the various metals and both bronze and brass weigh +/- 8500 KG per cubic meter. Silver weighs about 10500 kg/cu.m so that means that silver is 23.5% heavier than both Brass and bronze.

So all other things being equal a 16g brass/bronze badge should weigh just under 20g if it were to be made of silver...

fjcp,

Thanks for the research.

Ok, I weighted all four J 02 Herder Badges I currently have, two m-r (mirror-reverse) and two f-b (flatback).

Weights of both f-b, #1806 (Posts #52 and #53) and #4450 (Posts #42 and #43), as mentioned before are respectively 15,60gr and 19,80gr.

Now I also weighted my two m-r, pics also posted above.

#3344 (Posts #38 and #39) ? 16,80gr

#3345 (Posts #40 and #41) ? 16,15gr

As mentioned on my previous Post, based on the weight and the observation Ed suggested, I guess these two m-r should probably be silverplated. As well as one of the f-b, #1806; the other f-b, #4450 should probably be solid silver.

Just my two cents,

Dolf

PS: I don't owe anymore another f-b I posted above, #1500, which I weighted while in my possession, 14,20gr, but I don't know how it looks inside the numbers.

Mike, maybe you could help with this.

All you need to do is squint (with a magnifying lens?) at the numbering. See if it cuts into brass/bronze or silver the internal composition is made clear.

Ed,

Thanks for the hint.

Ok, I used a magnifying lens with a light incorporated.

In 3 of the Badges posted elsewhere on this thread (m-r #3344 + m-r #3345 + f-b #1806) inside the numbers the color seems a bit yellow (despite my lack of knowledge on the subject my intuition would make me to say brass or bronze); on the other Badge (f-b #4450) the inside of the numbers is completely different, very dark, almost black. I'd say this is because of the wear, dirt, whatever. I don't want to mess with these pieces by scratching the inside of one of the numbers to confirm, but based on my intuition (and also on the weight, please see next Post) I'd say silver on this case.

Dolf

Jan,

The same piece, one of these Herder Badges for instance, made in solid silver, would it be lighter or heavier than the same Badge made in bronze and silverplated? And what about one made in solid bronze?

I have not the slightest idea so that's why I'm asking.

If some of the members know the weights of these materials maybe that could help, with the weights we have for these Badges.

Dolf