Zepenthusiast

In keeping with the Johanniter conversion theory, each of the eagles has an additional "layer" atop their brow feathers--variable to some extent--and in the top view seen to have some width (it is not just the flash from being pressed during formation, for instance). It may very well be the base of the now-removed crowns.

There is a very nice qualitative aspect to the cross body and the eagles which is simply not borne out by the lettering and quality of the enamel. Not an original observation in this thread, but as a synthesis of some of the above comments: is this an older/quality Johanniter (perhaps made by JH Werner?), crowns and original enamel carefully removed, and "remade" as a kind of pseudo-PlM? It would explain the coarser aspects of the lettering, the enamel finish and substantial "spill" in places, the size and better quality of the eagles (which are both substantial). It may have been done for personal/private reasons and not as a deliberate attempt to trick anyone (especially if pre-WWII, per Sioni).

Les advances a strong case for skepticism of it being Imperial, to be sure. Having in the past tried unsuccessfully to find a local lab which could answer the plate vs. solid question (usual answer was "sure we can....long as it is less than 2.5 microns--classified as "heavy plate"), I had to cross-check on that 3mm claim. Les wins: an outfit called "Advanced Plastics and Material Testing" in Ithaca, NY (for instance) confirmed a laboratory XRF can determine plate "in excess of 8 microns." That would encompass most any likely plating. That kind of capability is not possible with the portable scanners (such as the Niton), as I found out all too well, but I stand corrected nonetheless. If you don't mind travelling to, or shipping it to a capable lab, it looks like they could non-destructively answer the question of composition. Density would seem to be a help re the metal content, but can you get around the effect of the enamel on a PlM, without having precise knowledge of volume and expected mass of the glass? Enamel actually ends up taking up quite a bit of volume on these things.

One other thought: is that definitely silver solder at the eagles? It looks like it to be sure, in some images (see post #22), but does not in others (post #21). Reflection of the camera flash may be inducing artifact ? (or perhaps is revealing the silver presence)--I find it hard to be sure from the available shots. Perhaps Sioni can clarify it by description or better close ups (or better yet a hi-res scan, as Les once taught me).

One other thought on the high weight. The eagles are unusually very large. If they were hypothetically solid gold (which can be verified after all, as noted above), could that move the weight of the whole piece up closer to 30 grams and still allow for a hollow body? Presumably, a lab able to do deep XRF could also ultrasound test it for hollow construction.

Incidentally, it is to my knowledge impossible to non-invasively differentiate heavily plated 18K gold from solid. No existing testing modality will allow for the call, unless you drill into the piece.

(By the way, meant to thank you some time ago for posting the additional shot of the J H Werner mark on the silver-gilt PlM, Erikn).

The cross would seem to be too heavy to be an early/1800s hollow gold, unless for some reason this manufacturer was much more prone to freely use the precious metal than recognized hollow gold examples (would seem rather unlikely). What is going on toward the right hand arm tip in the post #20 image? More enamel spots, or a series of breaks in the finish??

Sioni,

This could very well be an 1800s hollow gold PlM, if the bluish-white spot at the vertex of the edge of the lower arm turns out to be a filled vent hole (in a hollow cross). The enamel is a little "ratty" looking, but the fundamentals of how it was made are not inconsistent. J H Werner was very much in business during those years, though it would be helpful to know if any other evidence of them making (or marking) a PlM has ever emerged. The piece may turn out to be very valuable, if nothing else from the standpoint of its historical merit. Curiously, many details of this Pour le Merite have a "Godet" flavor about them. How much does it weigh.

(Tried to post a copy of the image in question with an arrow pointing at the possible vent hole, but doing something wrong...)

Hello, Erickn,

Your posting these is very welcome, since the mark can be seen head-on and not obliquely as on the Wagner-type PlM, which image you have also been kind enough to supply. (I note my syntax is reversed in my last post--meant to say the unknown PlM lacked the "serif" at the bottom of the "J." My phrasing suggests the other way around.) Your images show the "serif" in question is simply the result of the vertical stroke of the engraver's tool to form the "J" and you must be absolutely right that mark and the Kwone version are engraved and not stamped. The "W"s vary accordingly. A close-up of Sioni's PlM mark would be very helpful for comparison--the "J" perhaps suggests a bit more of a free-form construct than the other letters.

Hello everybody

I have inherited my grandfather's collection, there is Pour Le merite in good condition.

Can you tell me what value it has?

I will be grateful. Thank you.

This cross is not entirely inconsistent with pieces made in the late 1700s and early 1800s, if it were to prove to be made of gold and not gilded silver or bronze. This possibility is especially evoked by the "thin"-looking pie suspension and the somewhat applied or painted-on appearance of the lettering. The initials are also reminiscent of those on a Wagner-type solid silver PlM linked to JH Werner, discussed on another forum, though the latter lacks the small serif at the base of the "J" and the center of the "W" is lower.

Here you are:

Thanks, Komtur! What an exquisite piece--and the marks are nice and clear. Do you have any further information to specifically date the cross? I am attempting to put together a photo-timeline of the fonts Godet has used, to aid in dating/identifying their work. (Surprised I can't find any such comprehensive collection, or attempt at one. Perhaps it exists and I am not searching with the optimal terms.)

When there is enough of a grouping to present it, would like to ask your permission to re-post the image, attributed, of course.

Jim

Does anyone have good images of any silver content marks, on any Godet made decoration, known to date before 1918? (That is, definitely 1917 or earlier.)

Magnificent opportunity to compare these, with the added benefit of the relatively uniform lighting and magnification afforded by the scans. Any chance one could obtain a copy of the scans by PM for higher res inspection than is possible on the forum, Rick?

Will just scroll down and gaze some more...