DavidM

Hello Gordon

Very interesting photos, and more so in that some of the RK veterans are wearing both the full size RK and the miniature version on their lapels at the same time.

Incidentally, the EK1 in post #3 (The 1957 Iron Cross First Class in wear. The caption on the photo seems to indicate the man wearing the EKI is Henckel von Donnersmark) is an Imperial WW1 EK and not a 57 new form one.

Thanks for showing these.

Hello

Glad that you have finally got a new form RK. This one appears to be from the more modern production by S&L, perhaps 1990's onwards.

Hello

As you say Alex, there is a vast difference between an awarded medal or order and an official replacement. The 57 new form items are official replacements, and were never awarded or issued by the West German government. Anyone at all could purchase them, even back in 1957, so former WW2 veterans bought them, collectors bought them, dealers and so forth, but my understanding is that if you wanted to wear the piece you had to provide proof of entitlement to the original, awarded medal or order. The only new form pieces that should be considered as the official replacements are those that appeared on the original list from 1957 - but that is what they are, official replacement items sanctioned by the then West German government. Not awarded, just replacment items, which allowed, for example, decorated WW2 veterans then serving in the new Bunderswher to display and wear their decorations in a legitimised format.

As for a modern made piece being legimate, the answer I think is both yes and no. As Uwe points out the current German government doesn't seem to care who makes or sells these today. But, if you wanted to be really pedantic about it, then only those new form items made to the exact specification on the 1957 order should be consider as 'the real deal'. To illustrate this, (although it is also quite clear that all involved in the making of the 57 items soon disregarded the defined specifications) I have attached a photo of a page in Vern Bowens book 'The Prussian and German Iron Cross' for the manufacturing specification for the 57 RK. This clearly states, for example, that the cross insert is to made from iron. So it could be argued (if being really pedantic) that any RK, EK etc with a none ferrous core (magnetic iron) can't be a legitamate 57 item as very clear, precise manufacturing instructions were issued.

Rear of 1st pattern S&L RK

Hello

Alex, there are three flavours of the new form RK. These are commonly described as the 1st pattern, the 2nd pattern and modern 'produced for the collector' market' types. The new form RK that you posted is a 2nd pattern type, and as such is not one of the earliest - although it is still a good, decent item. The earlier made 2nd pattern pieces generally tend to have magnetic cores, and these sell privately at around ?300 - ?450. Although it takes a bit of persistance, you can still buy the new form RKs from S&L for around ?75 for the silver version and ?45 for the non silver type. These are commonly encountered on E-Bay, and for a bit more than the price S&L asks for them.

The really sought after ones are the first pattern. These were made using the original wartime frame dies, (the frames showing the die flaws) and were made and finished in exactly the same way as their wartime counterparts - burnished full silver frames and frosted beading. These are really early, and thought to be made from 1957 to the early part of the 1960's Price wise, the 1st pattern versions are selling privately for anything between ?750 and ?1200. I've attached a photo of one of my 1st pattern new form RKs for comparision.

Hope this helps.

Hello

An excellent, very early Deumer new form EK.

Hello

A good quality new form EK, dating from the mid to late 1960's. Good find.

Hello

I'd like to see some closer, better, sharper full face on photos, but it looks from what I make out to have the red enamelled ring under the gold wreath, and standard rear set up. So from what I can make out this looks like a decent quality new form DK, probably from the mid to late 1960's and made by Steinhauer und Luck.

Hello

A nice set of new form bars to the iron cross. The first class ones with the longer pins are of later manufacture, and the one with the shorter pin is an earlier one.

I wonder when we shall see 'rounder' '57s...

PK

Hello

Probably sooner than you think. The fake swastika'd DKs are now reappearing dressed up as 'very early' 57 DKs, complete with LDO numbers etc. I'm sure some enterprising person will shortly be replacing the swastikas on rounders with an oak leaf spray, and selling them on E-Bay as very early new form RKs.

Hello

Could you please post some full face on, but closer in photos of the back and front of this - my eyes aren't what they used to be From what I can make out, there are some things I like about this new form RK, and some that I don't, but with these photos I wouldn't like to say for definate one way or the other.

What can be said is that the core is that of the second pattern 57 RK, and as such cannot be an early made new form RK, although with a magnetic core it would be one of the earlier second pattern RKs. Is it an RK from Deumer? That I very much doubt, as to the best of knowledge Deumer didn't make second pattern new form RKs.

Hello

Probationary members have restricted upload rights. That said, it is possible to post a reasonable picture based on a size of 60kb. As an example, the photo I've attached is only 48.6kb in size, and still looks decent both in quality and size.

Hello

Thanks Mike. :beer:

Hello

Thanks Kevin :cheers:

Hello

A really nice collection Can you show close in shots of the back and front of the RKs and DK please.

Thanks.

In it's case

Rear

Hello

I've just recieved this early S&L new form version of the DKiG. This is the type that uses the same rear set up as seen on their wartime versions. This one has a very dark 'coppery' coloured starburst, as opposed to the very dark grey on my other 'wartime' parts one.

This DK has come complete with a halbuti style case. The case is very nice, and is clearly old. The underside of the interior base, (the section the cross actually sits on), is marked 637.KB, and the glue used is animal glue.

The photos don't really do this DK justice, (it's very dull, grey and wet here in England). The DK looks much better in the hand, and the 'coppery' coloured starburst is slightly darker to the eye than it appears from the photos.

As usual, any comments or observations welcomed.

Side

Rear

Hello

I received this 57 version of the KVK1 without swords the other day. The piece is much, much better 'in the hand' than these photos suggest. It has burnished silver highlights, all it's frosting and is factory vaulted. This actual piece is featured in Gordon Williamsons new KVK book.

As usual, any comments or observations welcome.

Rear

Hello

I received this nice 57 version of the EK2 on a parade mount the other day. The EK has a magnetic core.

As usual, any comments or observations welcome.

Hello Dan

Nice piece. I would suggest from the rear set up that this is one of the later made pieces.

Hello

Only my opinion, but I don't like it. The detail appears blurry and soft, rather than the fine, crisp detail normally associated with these. Also the lack of pebbling behind the date and swastika doesn't ring true to me either.