Jeff Mc William

Hi perfectos

From Eversons Roll ; Looks like your man served in the Res Bn 45F for the 1846-47 war and the Regular Bn for 1850-53 war

Regards Jeff

2 hours ago, Alpha Draconis said:

The numbers are impressed, and yes, there is a correct font. But fakers today make very good correct font!!!

 

 

Hi again Joseph

Yes, that's what worries me. I would be devastated to pay £300 to £400 only to discover later it was a fake !  Ideally I suppose a hallmarked example like obi's would be best … tho' I see from various auction catalogues that most are not. Also the weight seems to vary from 6.7g to 10.6g, 11.45g, and 16.3g, most confusing. Anyway, many thanks for your kind help. I shall continue my research until I feel confident enough to make a purchase. Regards Jeff

Many Thanks Paul & Joseph

Can I also ask ; were the numbers on the arms impressed or engraved ?  And is there a "correct" font ? Jeff

11 hours ago, Alpha Draconis said:

Hello Jeff

Do you meen the numbers on the reverse? Many of these were not numbered, but still original pieces...

Best regards

Joseph

Hi Joseph. Thanks.

Yes, also the 4 CTEII at the base. Was this sometimes omitted too ?

A lovely medal obi.

Please excuse my ignorance ( I am new to these awards), but where are the details on the reverse ? Have they been deliberately removed ? And is it possible to date this piece ?

Alex

That's fantastic ! Thank you. Two things puzzle me re the DNW cross ; first the ribbon which is different from the first example shown. Then of course the estimate, viz £150 - £200 very much lower than that quoted for the 50th Anniversary medal of which I understand 9,000 were struck in silver and are estimated at $75,000 each !  Does this mean that the 35th anniversary cross is held in less regard ?This is very surprising. Regards and many thanks again. Jeff

Hi Alex

Thank you very much for your prompt reply .. much appreciated I assure you. As I say there was no reference to this in Werlich or any other source I have consulted. Do you by any chance have any further information on this award ?

Attached please find pics of a silver item in the DNW Sale 16-17 Sept 2010 Sale ;

Hi all

A bit late on the scene, but can anyone tell me what this is (apart from being a fake)?  This version of the medal is not listed in Werlich or any other source that I am aware of … tho' one was listed in Spink (or DNW) some time ago. I have also seen pics in silver or wm. Regards Jeff

Hi Andy

Thanks for your reply. The reason I asked is because a very similar badge (possibly the same one) was offered at the Bosley sale of 5th July 2017 Lot 151. The badge was described as : "Georgian Officer's Regency shako plate attributed to Staff …." It was reversed metals and had a pin-back replacement, and the Unicorn was missing its horn, just as Brian's item.  I feel sure this is the same badge.

What evidence supports this view was not given. Possibly Hamilton ?

Anyway, have a nice Christmas and all the best for the New Year. Regards Jeff

Hi Andy

Any news from Gary Gibbs yet ?

Brian ;

Have you by any chance sold this badge recently ?  

Hi Andy

No problem : I guess a few people will have copied them already. You are all very welcome.

Images 2 & 3 were both taken from Lionel Buckle's notes in the Ogilby Trust Files which I had the great privilege to visit in 1977 at Whitehall when John Tamplin was the assistant there. I'm afraid tho' all the photos and drawings were very old and in black & white. Also, I had assumed the shako badge was in one piece and silver, but I could be wrong.  Image 2 I believe originated in the RUSI records. Regards Jeff

PS: I have had dealings with Garry Gibbs, please give him my regards.

Hi Andy

Thanks for your reply. I get your point re the "badges" but of course these do confirm the protocol. Re my 3rd image, this is definitely 1st Guards … not too clear I admit, but if you look closely, one can just make out the reversed and entwined cypher. I would guess this dates the badge as circa 1816 - 1820, after which the Royal Arms badge we are discussing followed.

The 1799 badge is also interesting that it does not follow the "universal" design of trophies for Line Infantry but has a lion & unicorn instead. There is also a Coldstream Guards version of this with the star of the Order of the Garter in the centre. I do not have details of the 3rd Guards badge but guess it would be similar with perhaps a thistle. Regards Jeff

Hi again Andy

Thanks for your reply and the interesting pictures. In return, here is a copy of the page to which I referred ; it is taken from "Records & badges of the British Army" by Chichester & Burges-Short, Pub Gale & Polden 1900. My other reference was "Battle Honours of the British Army" by C.B.Norman Pub John Murray 1911. Both have been recently reprinted and I guess are probably obtainable from Amazon, but I would NOT recommend them to badge collectors as they are rather large Tomes and the information they contain is mostly historical and nothing to do with badges.

Included also are some images I have re the 1st Guards shako badges : The first is the shako plate for 1799 to 1812. I am not certain of the provenance for this one however.  The second is a rather fuzzy close-up of another design for the Regency Shako 1816 to 1829. It is a silver badge with the reversed & entwined Royal Motto … very different from the badge we have been discussing.  This is from the Ogilby Trust Archives and is taken from a shako in the pre-war Shapiro Collection. So, again yet another design for the same regiment and the same shako ! Regards Jeff

Quote : " I don't believe the reversed metals represents different Battalions. Or I've never heard of that before"

Hi Andy

Not nowadays of course. But years ago these differences took on much more significance than they do today. eg; According to Chichester & Burges-Short, the reversed and interlaced Royal Cypher was the prerogative of the 2nd & 3rd Battalions Grenadier Guards, and the Honour "Waterloo" was also, strictly speaking, only awarded to the 2nd & 3rd Battalions.

I must confess, I do not know if or how these distinctions were reflected in their badges at the time, but certainly with respect to the Coldstream Guards, there are shako badges of the same period with and without the "Peninsula" honour, possibly reflecting the 1st & 2nd Battalions ?  

Such distinctions even carried onto different Companies of the same Regiment, ie;  The 1829-44 shako plates of the Light Coy 61st Foot carry the honour "Maida" while those of the Battalion Coys do not.  Similarly,for the same period, with the 40th Foot; Both of the Flank Coy badges carry the Sphinx & Egypt honour, while the Battalion Coys do not. This is also reflected in their SBPs.

With regard to the early Grenadier Guards shako badges, there appear to be three (or four) different designs for the same period, viz 1816 to 1825, the significance (if any) does not appear to be documented, so one can only speculate, as indeed we are doing. Regards. Jeff 

Hi Andy

Sorry I have not found the HAC plate yet, but here is the D of W badge referred to earlier : As you can see, it is not quite the same design as Brian's badge (disregarding the reversed metals) , but this could simply be a manufacturer's difference.

The only other reasons I can think of to explain the reversed metals is, either a 1st & 2nd Battn difference/distinction (?), or perhaps "Gentlemen at Arms" badge. 

Hi Andy

Yes, very nice. Tho' of course this is an Officer's "Albert" shako c.1844 to 1855. I have a nice photo of a HAC Bell Top shako plate c.1829 to 1844 which I will post on when I can find it.  However, Brian's shako plate is much earlier (circa 1820 I would say) and not quite the same design as the D of W badge to which he refers, ie the scroll on that badge being a three-part item, not a single semi-circular scroll as on Brian's badge (which also of course has reversed metals) … a real puzzler.  Also, I find it difficult to believe that Other Ranks (even in the Guards) were issued with silver and gilt badges. Do you have any evidence to support this ?  Regards Jeff

PS: Will post my images ASAP … as soon as I can find them. 

Hi Bryan.  A lovely badge indeed, tho' I disagree with Andy, and would say it is definitely an Officer's badge. To me the reversed metals indicate The Honourable Artillery Coy (Infantry Bn).  This certainly applies to the later "Bell-Top" and "Albert" shako badges and SBPs which I have seen.  Regards. Jeff

PS: Apparently this distinction was formerly confirmed by William IV in 1830, although it may well have been in practice much earlier.

Hi Megan

Thanks for asking. (many don't bother). Download mine by all means, but don't forget they originate from Spink. All the best Jeff

3 hours ago, paul wood said:

Jeff, both exquisite pieces, I note there is a Garter to the left of the Leon and Cadiz.

Paul

 

Hello Paul

Yes, they are very nice (and rare).  I only wish I had seen them at the time ... I might have been able to make a bid. As it is, some other lucky person has "bagged them".  They were illustrated on Spink's cover, that's why you can see the vestige of other items.(copy attached). Glad you were able to open these files. Regards. Jeff

Spanish Medals pen war spink.tif

Hi Antonio

Once again, very many thanks for your kind help in this matter and for the interesting link to your web site. Please find attached (if it works) two further examples of Spanish Peninsular War awards taken from an old Spink catalogue ... not mine I'm afraid.

I will be back later with my Albuhera Cross query later if I may. Once again, many thanks. Jeff

Spain 3rd Army Leon & Cadiz 1815.tif

Spain Chiclana Cross 1811.tif

PS: Sorry I don't know how to download pics yet, but if you click on these,they will come up. Regards Jeff

Hi Antonio

That's terrific ! Thank you very much for your most prompt and interesting reply.

This document seems to imply that  the medals were given in bulk by the Spanish Junta to be distributed by the British as they thought fit .... hence no Spanish list ??  So I guess I aught to be looking at the UK records if I can find them !  Anyway, this has given me fresh food for thought ... thank you.

Any thoughts about the ribbon dilemma ?

Once again, very many thanks for your help. Regards Jeff

Hi Augustin

Very many thanks indeed for sharing these rare, historic, and beautiful Spanish decorations and documents of the Napoleonic Wars.

At last I have found someone interested in these exquisite Peninsular War awards and who (I hope) may be able to help me with some long-standing, and so far unanswered, queries :

The first concerns the medal for Bagur & Palamos awarded in both gold and silver to British Naval personnel for their actions in Sept 1810.

To begin with ; despite the numbers being "banded around" viz, "8 gold, and the remainder in silver" there does not appear to be any list of names ... official or un-official for these decorations. I wonder if you could help me on this ?

Next, for the same medal ; All of the dealers and most of the printed references refer to the ribbon as "Red with yellow edges", but the example in the National Maritime Museum, Greenwhich, (which appears to be original) is yellow with red edges, and on two Spanish Web sites the ribbon is given as Green moire !?  Is there any explanation for this ?

I do have some other queries re the Albuhera Cross, but I guess these will be enough for the time being.

Looking forward to any help you can give. Sincerely Jeff McWilliam

Hi Augustin

Some fabulous and rare Swedish medals of a long forgotten contribution to the Napoleonic Wars. Thank you for sharing. Regards Jeff

Sorry Chris, I should learn not to be so "touchy".  My apologies.

Yes, I would imagine it might be a bit tricky in the heat of an aerial combat to ensure one didn't drift off over the Swiss border, and as for the odd stray shell (or gas attack) impinging on neutral territory, I guess that would be quite a worry for both sides too !

I can see I will have to try and locate some of these Swiss tomes to see if I can learn more about this very unusual and complex situation. Many thanks once again to both of you. Regards Jeff

:-(

 

I thopught this would be about cake :-(

Just a facetious pun.....sorry.

Re the "go figure" retort...that's just what I thought I was doing !  I just needed a little help that's all.

Anyway gentlemen, very many thanks for your replies (and the link)...much appreciated I assure you. Regards Jeff