Jeff Mc William

Right, I think 1883(-1) is the number of uploads since mine and is not a date!

Stuart

Ooops sorry Stuart ! To be honest I was a bit confused when I saw it and thought it was a "slip of the pen", but should have known better. Very nice badge tho' my congratulations and best regards. Jeff

William of Orange was titled William III so would that be indicated on the badge?

I have a cross belt and pouch with a pouch badge to William IV see below. Don't you hate those intertwined and reversed cyphers?

Hi Stuart. Thanks for the very nice pic of the William IV pouch badge. However, I see your attachment is labelled "..post 1883.." but William IV reigned from 1830 to 1837, so it is much older than you have indicated !

Leigh : You could be correct, but I don't think so. As Stuart has pointed out, the "WR" should be accompanied with the "IV" as with his badge. Regards. Jeff

Back view

Skirt Ornament to a Scottish Regiment ?? Can't think what "WR" could stand for tho' !????? Best I can offer. Jeff

Hello Mike.

Thank you for the expansion of the thread. This regiment must be the most or close to, decorated with the Victoria Cross formations in the British Army.

As to the shield showing all the German regiments which opposed the Welsh Division brings to mind Robert Graves' (Welch Fusiliers) "Goodbye To All That" and his mention of losses including those of the officers complement which you so drastically illustrate with the picture indicating officers casualties of the S.W.B.

I join the other gentlemen in voicing regret to be unable to visit in person but your posting such pictures partially makes up the void.

Bernhard H. Holst

Hi Coldstream. Many thanks for the excellent profile of the SWB Museum. My last visit there was in May 1984...it seems to have changed a bit ! Must go again when I get the chance.

Bernard, correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the RAMC had the most VC awards (including two double VCs) although I think this claim has been challenged recently. Regards. Jeff

O.K. - Jeff. I concede that you are right - hurry and get more posts on - then the pictures will be visible.... Mervyn

Do you collect helmets ?

Thanks Mervyn. Yes, I know my pics are a bit "duff" but 70K is not much to work with..especially when I see some of the other splendid pics on this site ! Sorry, no I don't collect any more..poor pensioner, can't afford to ! But I still enjoy my research work and am always willing to pass on my knowledge (such as it is). Best wishes. Jeff

Jeff - if it is intended to hold the tuft, that would put the Royal Cypher upside down ?

Hi Mervyn. These "reversed & entwined" scroll cyphers can be very confusing I know, but I have to disagree with you here I'm afraid :

If you download Alex's image and spin it round 180 degrees, you will find the VR cypher is correctly aligned.

I hope this next picture shows it a bit clearer than the last, but I am limited to 70K pics on this site. Regards. Jeff

That is a beautiful medal, well done

Is that the original ribbon or modern replacement?

Thanks

Dan

Excellent photos and well researched (tho' I suspect the ribbon is "modern") Many thanks for the priviledge of showing us this outstanding award. Jeff

Hi Alex. Me again. First of all, your item is upside down ! It is a Victorian Officer's Ball plume (or tuft) holder. It was used on a number of British Army Shakos from 1837 to 1878. I cannot date yours precisely, but would guess it is a later pattern. Regards Jeff

Hi (again) Alex. I have now been able to date your plume holder more accurately, ie ; 1869 to 1878.

Prior to this, the gilt ball at the base was plain. The VR cypher was added in 1869, and the shako was replaced by the helmet in 1878.

Regards. Jeff

PS: By the way, this was a "universal" pattern for all shakos, so it cannot be attributed to any particular regiment.

I'm really showing my lack of knowledge here! I can tell that this comes from headgear of some kind, but I'm not sure what it is called. Also, please can you help identify the regiment it belonged to, the age, and any other info.

Many thanks

Alex

Hi Alex. Me again. First of all, your item is upside down ! It is a Victorian Officer's Ball plume (or tuft) holder. It was used on a number of British Army Shakos from 1837 to 1878. I cannot date yours precisely, but would guess it is a later pattern. Regards Jeff

Jeff, that is one big book, no doubt! Does this book give names of men who served in the regiment? If so, I'm wondering if I should get hold of one, although I imagine they come at a price!! Either way, I will hold on to the badge, and find out who in my family may have worn it, if I can.

Alex

Hi Alex. No, I'm afraid it doesn't (apart from the list of Colonels) although the Appendices are 123 pages long ! I think your best option if you want to trace a relative is to write to the regimental HQ. Best of luck. Jeff

Thanks for that Jeff. I've looked up the RUSI museum, and see that it closed in 1963, so goodness knows where the badge in your book is now! You've shed a lot of light on to this badge for me, so thank you very much. In terms of value, is it possible to estimate, or are rare items like this too difficult to guess at?

Alex

Hi again Alex.

Yes, sorry, I should have pointed out that the Leask & McCance book was published in 1915 so thats why the information re the RUSI Museum is a "touch" out of date ! But the identification is still valid, and indeed L & McC is regarded by many as the regimental "Bible" as far as details of Dress and badges are concerned. And it looks like a Bible too ; 782 pages, 265X200X60mm, and weighing 3lbs ! Regards Jeff

PS: With regard to value, I am not too sure..I guess £80 to £100 is possible, perhaps even more. Maybe Bosleys could advise ?

Hi again rusticalex.

Having another "go" at attaching these images to this thread.

First, here is the line drawing from p.680 of "The Regimental Records of the Royal Scots" by J.C.Leask & H.M.McCance :

and here is the text (p681) :

Thanks Jeff...fantastic information, and lovely to hear that it is so rare. I have recently changed heart about selling any of the collection that my family has, mainly because many of the items were worn by one member of the family or another. Once they are gone they are gone, and whilst I know that good money could be fetched (and I have a few other things to share on here, some pretty special), ultimately they should stay within the family. Sorry, but I can not enlarge your attachment, although I'd be intrigued to see it. I am pretty confused as to why we have this in our possession - we are very lucky to have our family's history well documented, but at the period you mention I can not see that any of my ancestors were involved with the Royal Scots - they had plenty of involvement with other regiments, including Scottish regiments, but none with the Royal Scots, unless I am missing something. Oh well, I'll keep looking! Of course, it may not have belonged originally to one of my family!

Thanks also Leigh - badge is about 2" across, with, I think, gilt brass with silver plate rays, as you say.

Alex

Hi again rusticalex.

Having another "go" at attaching these images to this thread.

First, here is the line drawing from p.680 of "The Regimental Records of the Royal Scots" by J.C.Leask & H.M.McCance :

and the reverse...

Hi rusticalex.

Your excellent badge is an officer's forage cap badge c.1845 to 54 worn only by the 2nd Battn the Royal Scots. I will try to append the appropriate pages from the regimental history by Leask & McCance but I am not very good with pics on this site. Anyway, it is a very rare and desireable item, so hang onto it or get a good price for it. Try Bosleys if you want to get rid. Regards Jeff

First is the Tsao Kun Inauguration October 1923, the second is the Wei Pei Fu award for distinguished qualification to the Military School.

All the best,

Paul

Hi Paul. Thanks once again for your expert help...much appreciated I assure you. I have rquested some close-up pics (obv & rev) of the others from the owner, but for some reason they have suddenly gone strangely quiet !? Anyway, thank you again for your kindness. Jeff

1 has the centre missing but I suspect it is a provincial commissioners medal early 1920's possibly Chili province, 2 is the silver medal for the inauguration of president Tsao Kung in October 1923. 3 and 4 are provincial rifleman's awards from the same province and 5 & 6 look like presidential inauguration medals. My hunch is that they are probably good. I assume that 5 and 6 have something on the the other side if possible a scan of the reverses would be interesting.

All the best,

Paul

Hi Paul. Many thanks indeed for your expert assesment of these curious medals.

I am sorry to say they are not mine, but I will try to get the close-up pics you require of the reverse of these from the owner if I can.

Meanwhile, here are two of them, viz 2 ie top middle silver medal, and 6 ie bottom right fancy star. I wonder if I might ask what you think of these.

Many thanks in advance and best regards. Jeff

PS: Sorry about the definition, but it would appear the max file size is only 70K

Hi all. Please excuse my ignorance, I think all these are Chinese awards...but they could be Japanese I suppose. Could somebody please identify ?! Thanks. Jeff

Hello,

Just have a glance on the excellent JOMSA website :

http://www.omsa.org/...ery.php?cat=590

Truly yours

Cussonneau

Thank you Cussonneau. What an amazing and interesting site ! After looking at this I guess the so called "Order of the Button" refers in fact to one or all of these delightful Chinese Orders of Merit. Thank you again for your kind and generous (and most helpful) reply. Sincerely. Jeff

James. Thank you for your most courteous and informative reply. If you will excuse me now for a short while I will consult further the details which I referred to in my original post, plus anything else I can find which might clarify the situation.

It is a great pity I feel that neither Elvin or Tancred were able to provide illustrations of this particular device in their otherwise excellent early works. I notice you referred to the similarity with the Order of the Double dragon..which indeed I also did in my first post, and it seems Elvin was aware of this also from the vestige of the page in Rick's attachment. Have you any comments re the alternative title for the "Button" award, viz ; "Precious Star (Pao Hsing)" also mentioned in my first post ?

Hopefully I will get back to you shortly with the remaining details which I have..tho' not unfortunately any pictures. Regards Jeff

The writer is completely confused. There was no "Order of the Button".

Imperial court rank was symbolised by uniforms worn by all imperial officials (mandarins and military officers), their several classes were distinguished by an elaborate costume. As part of this, they wore a distinguishing girdle and cap with a peacock feather. At the top of the cap were "balls" called "buttons" with different sprecious materials denoting the rank of the wearer:

Princes not of the Imperial Family and 1^st class military and civil courtiers – ruby button

2^nd class – red coral

3^rd class – sapphire

4^th class – opaque stone

5^th class – transparent crystal

6^th class – jade

7^th class – embossed gold

8^th class – plain gold

9^th class – silver

Cheers,

James

James. Oh dear..now I really am confused ! To which "writer" are you referring, Rick or Elvin (or me !) ?

Also, you seem to infer that these "buttons" served only as badges of rank for Imperial Officials. But, if this is so, what were these "Order of the Button" awards given to the four men of the 67th Regt in 1862 mentioned by Elvin (and incidently Tancred) ? Also I am aware of similar awards to the Royal Artillery and the Anglo Chinese Contingent. So, while I bow to your obvious superior knowledge in these matters, to say that I am now more confused than ever is an understatement ! Cheers Jeff

From the ONLY reference I could find--unfortunately without illustration-- C.N. Elvin's 1892 "The Hand-Book of the Orders of Chivalry, War Medals & Crosses..."

it appears that this was not actually an Order but an assortment of similar looking local awards simply sharing certain design motifs. He refers to it here as an "Order" but Werlich did not. r

Rick. Thanks very much for this..it looks as tho' we are off to a good start ! I wonder if anyone "out there" has any pics they can show me ? I do know there were at least four grades, viz : The Red Button, Green Button, Blue Button, and Crystal Button. This last may also have been known as the White Button ??

Regards Jeff

PS What does Werlich actually say ?

Can someone help a confused novice in the matter of Chinese OD&M's :

I am anxiously seeking information regarding the "Order of the Precious Star" (Pao Hsing) also I believe called the "Order of the Button" instigated (I think) in 1862 and awarded to several British Officers and men of the Anglo Chinese Contingent, presumably for their services in the Taiping Wars.

The Order is very briefly referred to in Tancred (published in 1891). One item is listed in the RUSI Catalogue published in 1916, and there is also another mention in the OMRS Journal (Autumn 1982). So I quite expected to find a more detailed description in the latest book "Chinese Orders 1862-1955" by Gongqing Li as outlined in the Chinese Blog http://chinesemedal.wordpress.com also given in a previous thread on this forum..but..nothing, tho' it does seem to have a remarkable similarity with the "Order of the Double Dragon" ?? Could anybody clarify please ?? Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Many Thanks, a very beautifull group !

Regards

Lilo

Yes, it is indeed a fine group, not mine tho' I dont collect any more..just research. This group was sold by DNW in Nov 1996. I bet it fetched a "bomb" !! Regards. Jeff

Hello Gentlemen.

There are a few "Zulu War" medals for sale on this site at the moment, including a couple for the campaigns of 1934-53. African Military Connection

Regards

Thomas

Hi everyone. Many thanks again for the useful information and your kind comments. I am no longer a "doubting Thomas" on this issue ! But hey..has anyone out there got a decent photo of the 1877-9 bar they can send me for my records? I would be most grateful. My e-mail address is :

jeff.mcwilliam@tiscali.co.uk

Thanks to anyone who can help. Sincerely. Jeff

If you follow the link in post #2 above, the entire roll is there.

Thanks Jeff. Yes I have tried this link but was unable to get the full list..just extracts..what am I doing wrong ?

Oh, and just to whet your appetite Lilo, how about this amazing group of Brig.Gen George Pereira, Grenadier Gds. He was a Major when he received his Order of the Dragon No.668, and,as you can see, had two Japanese decorations as well !