Phil Steele

Thanks Jaba...nice document. I wonder if the documents varied as to the different grades of the award. I see this one is for the 3rd class and whilst waiting for a reply to this thread I actually found another identical document on a web site and it was for the 3rd class. Again many thanks. Phil

Hey Guys, Just a quick and hopefully and easy one. Did award documents accompany the Bavarian MVK medals when they were given out? If so would anybody be able to post one or two so I can have a look. Thanks in advance. Phil

Peter, Email sent...thanks Phil

Yes Tim thats the one...beautiful shield to be sure and I too questioned the paper backing. As to type...not fussy just as long as it has NARVIK on it. Oh yeah the wifes cool....she wears her collection on her fingers so no problem.:blush:

Righto guys find me a Narvik because I cant....found one for a ridiculous price and I am not convinced the backing paper is genuine. Same website as that Demjansk with the backing paper you were talking to Peter about Tim. Lovely looking but not for that price. And guys I am serious. On the subject of T Rex Krims I think that will do me....all I really wanted to know was the overall concensus amongst the collectors regarding it and that question has been answered here. Appreciate it now find me a Narvik. Phil

Hey Guys, Tim well said and couldnt agree more. As I have said before I think it is false to place too much emphasis on pins and pieces of wire that are there for the sole reason of attaching the medal, badge, or whatever to the wearer. I have no doubt that if a company making shields ran out of flat wire but had plenty of round wire then of course they would use it. Again it was only to keep the shield attached to the backplate and cloth. It was not an intricate part of the design. Guys I have to be honest and say I believe we collectors are indeed looking at things in far too much detail. They are as you said Tim, mass produced awards for combat etc. They are not items of jewelery or works of art. On a personal note at the end of the day all I really want to know is if the thing is genuine or not. I guess others really want to know who made it but unless the item is maker marked or come off a company board then its complete guess work and too much imagination is being used to try and establish this information. Of course I am not referring to making sure the shield/badge/medal or whatever is genuine...that is an entirely different ball game. Cheers guys. Phil

Hi Guys, Interesting comments here. Firstly I too can see the T Rex link so I also must have the same issues. Yes both my T Rex Krims are heavily vaulted. Tim that is interesting food for thought regarding the dealers inventory etc. Never really thought about it before but it does make a lot of sense. I have only once ever asked a specific dealer to contact me in respect to an item he didnt show on his web site. I was sent an immediate reply stating that he actually had two of them. Could well be right about this controlling the flow. I must start sending off a few emails regarding a Narvik as I am having a devil of a time trying to find one at a realistic price. Peter you raise a good point but I dont think anybody could answer that for you unless you found an old worker from one of the awards factories although surely someone must have some idea how long a die would last for this type of work. It would seem that some manufacturers did indeed get more than an equal share in the production of Krims whilst others (not necessarily smaller manufactureres) got the crumbs so to speak. Maybe factories like Deumer and the other more commonly seen makers of known Krims could not keep up demand thus prompting other makers to be given smaller contracts. Who knows but I just dont see more than one die being used at a time but again a guess. Back to the T Rex I would be interested to know if any ZINC T Rex Krims exist and if any original backing paper other than the black or green were used. As said I very much doubt the authenticity of the backing paper on the back of that first pictured shield and I know what you guys think as well. Phil

Dohhh....I have owned that second shield for a year or so now and for some reason I always thought or assumed it to be made of zinc... The old magnet test reveals otherwise....boy what a dope (why is their no Homer Simpson Icon). Sorry Tim both shields are stamped steel which actually makes my theory of a worn out die for the pristine example far more feasible. Phil

Here are a few close ups of the two shields...no need to point out which one is which as I am sure that shows quite clearly. I have seen a few of these shields on the market in well respected and not so well respected dealers and I have also seen them mentioned briefly on WAF but no real discussion can I find on these shields. I am hoping to generate enough interest to maybe put to bed once and for all the doubt that still hangs over these shields. (Tim, Peter...hey my pics are getting better) Phil:rolleyes:

Hi Guys, One of the first Krim shields I added to my collection last year is what I now know to be called by collectors as the T Rex or Flat Chested Krim. Since then I have added a second of the same type to my collection of Krims. I believe there are some collectors out there, primarily Russian collectors, who doubt their authenticity and to add some fuel to that fire I have noticed that this shield is not present in Webers book on the Krim Shield. They are not included in Webers list of known examples nor are they listed in the Fake section of that book. I have not spoken to the author so I am completely mystified as to why. I would like those out there with any knowledge on the subject of Krims and in particular those collectors who have an example of this shield in their collection to let me know what they think. Firstly I am going to state that I do believe they are original shields. Although in this first photo I will show you I could understand why anybody would doubt that. This shield I dont think was ever issued. There is some doubt as to the originality of the paper backing and indeed the backing cloth but I know very little about each but I do believe the shield to be a good one. As you can see it is virtually untarnished by age and yes there is a chance it could have been cleaned prior to my purchase but I doubt it. As you will see in the next few pictures the detail around the eagles talons and wreath surrounding the swastika are virtually devoid of detail. Call it a weak strike if you like but I think when this shield was made the die was just about had it and as this area of the shield is one of the highest points on the shield then it stands to reason that this area will wear the quickest. As I said if this were my only shield of this type and somebody said they are fakes then I probably would listen to them. However check out this shield which was the first one I purchased. This is the same design but an earlier strike even though it is made of zinc. Here is the reverse of both shields. I dont think anyone could argue that the second shield is original.

And in respect to the 2 in that shield you posted Peter....is there a bend in the shield at that point? It looks like it has a ding or two in it which would account for the 2 looking out of wack. Phil

Tim, From what I have managed to decipher Weber makes no other mention to that shield. Peter might be able to add as he has the English version. As for the eyes...not sure about yours but I am 52 and wear glasses...everything is looked at under a magnifying glass. Phil:cool:

Oh Yeah almost forgot.....Andrei that is really a nice collection of Krim shields you have but I have doubts about that one we were discussing. Phil

Peter, I think that shield you posted (Jamie Cross right) is the same as the one in Webers book 1.15 Unknown Maker. To me it just looks like a week strike or the die is just about kaput but I do think it is one and the same. The eagles head looks a bit different than the photos in the book but then I just took delivery of the supposed Souval type and when you look under a loop at the eagles head it is different than the photo portrays it (shadows etc) The only thing that I can see different is the number 2 on 1942 but again maybe the picture. Have a look at that shield and compare it to the one in Webers book. Pay particular attention to the tip of the left arm on the swastika.....I think this is maybe a die fault and the one you have shown (I assume it is yours) and the one in webers book is the same. I think it is genuine for sure. And Tim that is the comparison page we were talking about but gee its actually readable where as mine is all gobblygook (no offence meant to any German speaking collectors) :D

Changed my mind Andrei...I think all three are fakes. Sorry. Look like Eastern European copies but again just my opinion. Phil

Thanks Andrei for posting the pics. The shield that has been found at Kaliningrad is in my opinion different from the other two. Even with these pics I can still see differences and it maybe that it is a Deumer shield of the round pin type but as I have not seen such a shield without backing cloth I cant say how those round pins were attached. Could be one and the same but until I have seen some known examples without the backing then I will reserve my opinion. As for the other two...the one with the backing certainly looks the part but I dont like certain aspects of it. I will be interested to see what the others say but I am of the opinion these two shields are repros. Just my opinion and no offence intended. Phil

Nothing more I can add to this shield but I would like to point out that these discussions I have been having with you guys has presented me with one very important item...Webers book is full of holes. But then I guess that can be said of all reference works. I do like it still and will continue to use it but I doubt if I could ever resell my copy as it is full of notes and bits of paper attached to shields we have discussed. Look forward to your next posting and the Duemer topic is still on going. Phil

Hi guys, I am like you Peter, cant rule it out and cant rule it in. As I said earlier I have seen round pin attachments like this on other items but I have also seen them on fake items too like some of the SS Totenkopf hat badges coming out of the Ukraine. There are aspects of this shield I like but I still have a problem with the sharp pointy bits. I do like the fact it is made of zinc but then so was that small 4 Narvik I just got rid of. Andrei if you like it then thats all that matters until further information comes to light. Did you send the picture of the one your friend purchased from Detlev to Peter. I would like to have a close look at that one for comparison. Phil

Hmmmm..charges me 30Euros (over $50 Aud) and it comes normal bloody registered mail. It has to be good for me to offer him my business.:angry:

As I said Tim I could go either way. You dont happen to have any pics of these Laser copies do you. I must admit I was taken back by the sharp ridges/angles and cant say I have ever seen that on any shield. Phil

Firstly Tim....nice shield. As I said I looked at this one myself but didnt have the funds (same old sad story) Ok, I have deciphered a bit of Webers book where he attempts to justify this shield as an Orth and here are the four points he lists but not verbatum. 1. The Eagles head is massive (umm so are several others in the book) 2. the interior of the wreath surrounding the swastika is pebbled. 3. The bottom of the letter R is the same (as you have shown similar not same). 4. He believes the numbers are similar (I really dont see that at all) Very flimsy in my opinion but I am no expert. Yes there are some similarities but as you said every Krim shares some similarities. If this is an Orth then it is a different die from the four listed as Orth's in his book. My own opinion is that this is another unknown maker......it could be a late Orth with a change in die but I dont think so. I must point out that Weber even says the design could be orth but made by another maker and mention Hobacher. I have got to be honest and say that I think a lot of this trying to match shield to maker is fraught with a lot of misconception and much "I want it so" on the part of the author or owner. Unless it has a makers mark or is identical in every way to one with a makers mark I will always be sceptical irrespective of who says so. As for the authenticity....I do believe this to be a genuine shield. Like you I agree the backing paper is good and not at all like the obvious postwar backing paper that I have on one of mine. Unfortunatly mate I am not a sewer either although I can Iron so cant say more about that. I will just say at this point should you ever find out it is not the real McCoy then I (being the true friend that I am) will rather reluctantly take it off your hands. Nahh dont mention it mate thats what friends are for. Look forward to saying a bit more on this one. KR Phil

Hmmmm very interesting. Andrei do you know what the shield is made from...and is it magnetic. The way I see it there are a number of choices here. 1. The shield is an out and out fake but if that was the case how come you guys have never seen this design before. I maybe wrong here but if I was going to go to the trouble and expense of faking something then I would want a good return which means plenty of examples out there. 2. The shield is genuine and from a maker not known. All Krim shields share some characteristics but I dont believe for a minute that this is a Deumer shield (ie yet another different die). I am not sure which way to go on this shield yet. I want to know what it is made from for a start. Tim I have seen this style of pin mounting before on other items of TR such as hat eagles and items like that so I dont really see a problem with this although I must admit I have yet to see that on a shield but maybe this is a first. I dont like the sharpe angles seen on the land shape. I have never seen this before and every shield listed and shown that I have looked at all have softer rounder detail. I think Andrei has added some new life into this thread Tim. I would like to hear Pascal's or even Filips opinion on this shield...... Phil

Peter that close up of the bare shield whilst it has a lot of Duemer characteristics is in my opinion different. What do you think or am I just seeing things here. Phil

I was a good discussion Tim...I really enjoyed it and it is a shame no else chimed in as I know there are some guys on this forum who have been in this game a heck of a long time and could have added some comments I am sure that we would have found interesting. Still thats the way it goes I suppose. Just on the subject of your Maedicke. Webers has the one with the wire pins and the makers mark listed as a Maedicke whilst the one with tabs like yours is shown but listed as unknown maker at the back of the book. Interesting that...then he also shows what he says is a Souval badge and one which both Peter owns and I have on order but then portrays a very similar shield which both Peter and I agree must be from the same maker as an unknown maker. No book is going to have all the facts I guess and I sometimes think that this ïnvestigative research into makers of previously unknown and unmarked badges is sometimes a bit hard to swallow. I remember many years ago I read by a well respected collector of primarily Kriegsmarine items that you cannot place too much creedence on the pins attached to combat badges as these were often put on by other manufacturers. In otherwords sub contracted out. And yet, when Frank Heukemes bought out his book on the GAB quite of lot of his work in naming previously unmarked badges was based on pin similarities. Personally I dont put a lot of faith in that. Just my thoughts. Phil

No problems. I have yet to try and translate that section of Webers book so until I do that I have no idea as to why he thinks it is an Orth but I guess he must have a good reason. Funny thing I saw that shield when he updated his site and thought that's a good one. Didnt have the funds though so well done you..a nice purchase that. If you dont mind me asking what does he slug you for cost of mail? You live in the states right? Just interested because he is very expensive when it comes to mail costs. Will wait to see the thread and I might pop over to WAF for a look see..generally do. Phil