Odin Mk 3

March 6, 2013

I would like to point out that it is very unusual for find these medals re-named.

Historically they were not that expensive to buy and there appeared to be no little interest in re-naming them in order to add them to groups of other medals etc.

The Met had been issued with a few unnamed medals which were held as spares, so any serving officer losing his medal could easily get a replacement from the Police.

I have handled hundreds of these medals over the last twenty years and have only ever encountered a couple of re-named medals. So if this turns out to be the case for this example then you have been extremely unlucky.

March 6, 2013

No Discharge Register entry or service sheet for him I'm afraid. He does appear in the Attestation Register which gives his full name as Edgar Peter Postle.

The 1911 Census gives this same named individual who seems around the right age:

name: Edgar Peter Postle

event type: Census 1911

gender: Male

age: 48

birthplace: Blofield, Norfolk

registration district: Henstead

sub-district: Humbleyard

parish: Newton Flotman

county: Norfolk

Looks like he came from Norfolk and went back there after leaving the Police

March 6, 2013

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I suspect this medal has been re-named.

I have searched through all the Discharge Register indexes from 1897 to about 1910 and failed to find anyone called Postle or something similar. These indexes are rather basic and are semi alphabetical but all the As, Bs Cs etc are listed in the order the men left; they also give the page number for their respective entry in the Register. Result nothing at all - no officer called E Postle left the Met in this period (which is when you would expected him to have done, based on him earning this medal and clasp).

I then went through some extracts I have from the old Police Order database and also couldn't find this man. This was beginning to make me suspicious that he had left earlier than 1889 when the Discharge Registers start, which means he might not be entiitled to the 1897 bar.

In desperation I went back to my early warrants list which I compiled when I started work on the book. It also contains officers who received no medals at all. Eureka I found him.

Warrant No 71205 Edgar Postle joined the Met 11/02/1887 as a PC in Y Div (Highgate) and resigned 30/05/1887 as a PC in N Div (Islington).

As the Jubilee procession was held on 21st June 1887 he had already left the Met Police three weeks before that event and therefore was not entitled to the medal at all.

Which brings me to the conclusion that he might have felt he should have received one but didn't, so he has self bestowed someone elses on himself (albeit one with the 1897 bar added as well).

A rough idea of the naming style is given below. It would be good if you could post a photo of the edge for comparison purposes.

Sorry it's not better news for you.

December 24, 2012

In response to the above requests the book is:

The Metropolitan Police, The Men and their Medals compiled by JHF Kemp

I had it privately printed so copies are only available directly from myself

The current cost to GMIC members is £25 + P&P (which is now an extra £7.50 as it is quite heavy)

It covers 1887 -1911 Jubilee and Coronation Medals to Met Offciers who joined the force after 1879.

For more details see http://jhfk.com/pdf/book.pdf

If members are interested then please send me a personal message

December 14, 2012

Nice picture of your great grandfather

For your gg grandfather I have found two Stubbs who were in Thames Division around the correct timeframe:

John Stubbs who finished as a Ch Insp in Thames but would have been only 16 when he joined in 1867 if he is the man, which is highly unlikely

Joseph Stubbs who finished as an Insp in Thames and did actually join in 1871

Their details are:

John Stubbs - Warrant No 49099 joined 20/12/1867 and retired 05/12/1898 as a Ch Insp in Thames Div

Joseph Stubbs - Warrant No 55018 joined 26/12/1871 and retired 12/12/1897 as an Insp in Thames Div

Both would be entitled to the 1887 Medal with 1897 bar and neither returned as a pensioner for the 1902 or 1911 Coronations

I have just checked another resource which shows Joseph Stubbs retired as an Insp(3) - now this is effectively a Police Sergeant. Originally Thames Div did not have PSs but Insp(3)s.

It was to do with their ability to stop and search for customs etc and it was felt that the title PS did not carry sufficient weight, so they were classed as Insp 3rd grade.

This practice stopped in around 1902 when Thames adopted the rank of PS in line with other parts of the Met

December 13, 2012

Neil I suggest it would be best if you were to send me a Personal Message as I feel it might be considered inappropriate if I were to advertise my own book on this Forum.

December 12, 2012

I note your interest Neil in the H and J Div medals.

I would still urge Forum Members to show some caution when buying these medals, be careful of paying over inflated prices for them as you may well be dissappointed when you research them further.

As an example, I have an 1887 Jubilee Medal (no bar) to PC J Devonald H Div. I bought it some years ago and fortunately it was around the same the price as a standard Met Police 1887 Jubilee Medal. Just as well as PC John Devonald (Warrant Number 52620) died 4th Feb 1888 which is before anything happened.

I am also aware of one collector who bought an expensive 1897 Jubilee Medal for H Div and that man wasn't even in the Met Police at the right time.

December 12, 2012

Further to a recent post here is a list of all the Met Divisions with the 1910 designations and earlier Divisional names:

CO Commissioner’s Office (Scotland Yard)

A Whitehall

B Chelsea (originally Westminster)

C St. James’s

D Marylebone (originally St Marylebone)

E Holborn

F Paddington

G Finsbury

H Whitechapel

J Hackney (originally Bethnal Green)

K Bow

L Lambeth

M Southwark

N Islington

P Camberwell

R Greenwich

S Hampstead

T Hammersmith (originally Kensington)

V Wandsworth

W Clapham

X Kilburn (originally Paddington)

Y Highgate

TA Thames

1^st Woolwich (Dockyard and Arsenal)

2^nd Portsmouth (Dockyard)

3^rd Devonport (Dockyard)

4^th Chatham (Dockyard & Sheerness Dkyd)

5^th Pembroke (Dockyard)

There are also the following which were created later:

6^th Rosyth (Dockyard) created 1914

Z Croydon created 1921

1887 medals for Thames show TA Div but later issues show Thames in full.

December 12, 2012

George Mardell joined the Met 13/12/1886 as a PC in H Div. His Warrant Number was 72219. He was pensioned 18/02/1904 and was then serving as a PC in R Div (Greenwich).

That's all I have on him I've afraid. Unfortunately all these men joined too early to have service sheets in the National Archives which start at Warrant Number 74201 but most will have pension papers. Again that will require a trip to the NA to access them as, unlike the Service Sheets, they are not on-line

December 12, 2012

A number of Divisons have been mentioned in this post

Here are the areas for those mentioned above, with the 1900s designations given and any earlier titles shown in brackets:

B = Chelsea (originally called Westminster)

E = Holborn

H = Whitechapel

J = Hackney (originally called Bethnal Green)

K = Bow

N = Islington

T = Hammersmith (originally called Kensington)

W = Clapham

X = Kilburn (originally called Paddington)

Y = Highgate

December 11, 2012

52726 Isaac James Godding originally joined the Met 16/05/1870 as a PC in N Div and left 17/06/1895 (pensioned). He was then a PC serving in J Div.

He re-joined just for a short time as a pensioner for the 1902 Coronation with the new number 829 (13/06/02) and served again with J Div

So his full entitlement would be an 1887 (no bar) and a 1902 Coronation

59134 Frank Bragg originally joined the Met 12/07/1875 as a PC in X Div and left 16/07/1900 (pensioned). He was then a Sub Divisional Inspector serving in B Div

He re-joined for a short time as a pensioner for the 1902 Coronation with the new number 1718 (19/06/02) and served as an SDI in T Div

Full entitlement is an 1887 Jubilee and bar 1897 and a 1902 Coronation Medal

A Sub Divisional Inspector was more senior than an Inspector

62184 George Charles Westcott joined the Met 28/01/1878 as a PC in E Div and left 02/02/1903 (pensioned). He was then a PS serving in W Div

Full entitlement would be the group you have

70529 - full name is Oliver William Freemantle

71300 - full name is John Charles Birch

71162 - full name is Robert Stephen Pert

September 8, 2012

Benjamin Newton was Warrant Number 96502

He joined as a PC 11/01/1909 in V Division (Wandsworth)

He retired as a PS 15/01/1934 in P Division (Camberwell)

The 1911 Coronation Medal appears to be his sole entitlement as a Met Officer

I can tell you that when he joined his Collar Number was 919V and he reamined a PC in V Div until 02/03/1918 (his Collar Number by then had changed to 1220V) when he was promoted to PS and transferred to P Div (with the Collar Number 79P)

When he retired from P Div his number was 23P - so it appears that he spent the whole of his career in these two divisions (V & P)

Unfortunately I can't tell you which stations he served at, just the divisions.

I assume you have his service sheets from the NAs (two pages) - if not I can add them here

June 6, 2012

N Division was Islington (N London) - now the Met Police are based around the London Boroughs - Islington still is one of the Boroughs. Where the new titles align with old Divisions these are given below in brackets - most of those shown are the 1910 designations except Z Div which was formed in 1921.

Croydon (Z Div)

Greenwich (R Div)

Hackney (J Div)

Hammersmith and Fulham (T Div)

Islington (N Div)

Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (B Div)

Lambeth (L Div)

Southwark (M Div)

Wandsworth (V Div)

June 6, 2012

Unfortunately as the 1911 Medals don't show the man's division it is sometimes difficult to identify the exact individual. For PC G Harvey there are two possible recipients.

The men are

Warrant Number 73547 George Harvey who joined 2/4/1888 as a PC in G Div (Finsbury) and left 4/12/1912 as a PC in 2nd Div (Portsmouth Dockyard) - he actually died whilst in the police service. His full entitlement is 1897 Jubilee, 1902 Coronation and 1911 Coronation - all earned at 2nd Div.

Warrant Number 74538 George Harvey who joined 10/6/1889 as a PC in D Div (Marylebone) and was pensioned as a PC in D Div 15/6/1914 - 25 years service. His full entitlement is 1897 Jubilee, 1902 Coronation and 1911 Coronation - all earned in D Div. I have found the service sheet for this man, his full name was George Newbury York Harvey born 18 July 1865 and was a labourer living in Gosport when he joined the Met.

May 2, 2012

You're welcome

Note I have started another thread on Met Police Records:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54100-metropolitan-police-service-records-mepo-4/

This gives information on where the records are (like those pages shown above). You can download them straight from the National Archives, Free of Charge, but if anyone wants the sheets for the odd Met Officer then I can provide them as I have the whole lot stored on my computer (Warrant Numbers 74201 - 97500).

April 18, 2012

I think the link is more likely to be to the Met Police than the City of London force, which was relatively small compared to the Met . I have looked at the information I have on the 1897 Jubilee Medal for Police Ambulance Service. There were issued to the following:

Hospital Association Ambulance Service: 1 Hon Sec, 5 Sisters, 49 Commissionaires (mostly Ptes), 16 Divisonal Surgeons, 7 Medical Officers, 1 Volunteer Surgeon.

I assume these Divisonal Surgeons acting like Police Surgeons.

The awards for 1902 appear to cover wider groups including men serving with Volunteer Forces (the forerunners to the Territorial Army). Their equivalents in 1897 appear to have received the SJAB issue of the medal and not the PAS issue.

April 18, 2012

I have a few names for the 1897 and 1902 Medals to the PAS (but not a complete roll). Unfortunately I have nothing for the 1911 Medal. For the earlier medals some of the PAS issue went to men who were serving in the London Volunteer Companies of the RAMC. This was possibly also the case for the 1911 Medal.

The numbers issued for the 1911 Medal are not shown in Medal Year Book - just a combined list with the SJAB, St Andrew Amb Assn and Police Ambulance Service. However I have some papers from the Receiver's Office of the Met Police which show the engraving costs and therefore givesthe number of medals engraved (so identifying how many were issued)

St John Ambulance Brigade 2755 - 28.06.12

St Andrew Ambulance Association 310 - 13.06.12

Police Ambulance Service 130 - 13.06.12

The dates are the final dates of issue for these medals (approx 1 year after the event).

Incidentally the engraving of all 1911 Police Issue Medals (inc Fire Brigade and City of London Police) was managed by the Receiver's Office. The medals cost 5d each (2p) for the engraving and were issued with 9 inches of ribbon (@ 1s 3d per yard (6p).

April 10, 2012

Warrant No 74201 (G Allan) joined 28th Jan 1889

Warrant No 97500 (G McQueen) joined 15th Nov 1909

So they cover nearly 21 years and some 23,300 officers, many of whom received Jubilee and Coronation Medals (Police Issue)

Unfortuantely I don't think they had these sheets before Warrant No 74201.

No doubt in a few years time they will release more sheets for later warrant numbers but of these under 2000 will be relevant to the 1911 Coronation Medal.

April 10, 2012

Having just answered a query on another thread, I thought members might like to know that the Service Sheets for Met Officers in the range of Warrant Numbers 74201 to 97500 are available at the UK National Archives and can be downloaded (Free of Charge). They don't contain a lot of information but do give the outline of the officers' service careers plus some basic information (dob, previous occupation etc) when they joined the force.

I have tabulated which files the information is in against the warrant numbers:

I do have this information to hand if members have a specific equiry re the odd officer

April 10, 2012

And the other page of his service sheet is below

April 10, 2012

Sorry just checked he joined 14/07/1890 (copied the date incorrectly)

A copy of one page of his service sheet is attached

April 9, 2012

Your man is

William Wells who joined 10/07/1890 as a PC in K Division (Bow) with the Warrant Number 75972

He was pensioned, still serving as a PC in K Div 0n 10/03/1917 (retired medically unfit). He served his whole career in K Div.

You have his full entitlement to Police Medals

His full name was William John Wells. Born 26/11/1867 in Bexhill Sussex.

He was a blacksmith before he joined the force and he was single, living at Earl's Court.

February 16, 2012

My wife has just returned from a group meeting she goes to. Their speaker this afternoon was a Yeoman of the Guard, ie a member of the Queen's Body Guard. He had his tunic and medals there (but is not allowed to actually wear his uniform unless he is on duty). My wife took some photos and it showed that he had the QGJM (plus GMS Northern Ireland, ACSM and Army LS&GC).

He told the meeting he has already received his Diamond Jubilee Medal - on 6th February - but is not permitted to actually wear it until June.

Unfortunately he didn't bring that medal with him otherwise I would be posting a photo of it here.

February 6, 2012

We have now reached the point at which the minatures of the new jubilee medal can now be worn.

I was given this group to 'update' with the latest minature and hopefully will have the full size medals to re-mount shortly. Interesting group and yes the Bronze Star is in the London Gazette.

January 3, 2012

The explanation is that if you look very carefully at the 1897 case, you will find it was a PS Henry Rouse in R Div (Greenwich). This is a different Henry Rouse, Warrant Number 65714, who was a Station PS with the number 64R, as per that case. This man retired in 1907 as an Inspector in Y Div (Highgate). So not the same man I'm afraid. Excellent source of information those Old Bailey cases as they can give you an insight into some of the cases officers were involved with.

HENRY ROUSE (Sergeant R 64). I was at the station as acting inspector—I received this coin from the last witness, I marked it—this is it—I charged the prisoner with this—he said, "It is a false accusation—a week afterwards he was charged with the other case—he made no reply to that.

If you can get more information on PC Henry Rouse I would be very interested and especially to see a copy of the photo if that is possible.

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