Vickers Dunfee

Hope this is not going too far off thread but I found this whilst looking for something else. This is a copy of instructions issued to SCs parading in the City Of London in November 1887.

Hope th works as my first attempt to upload anything.

Obviously not I will try again.

Hope this is not going too far off thread but I found this whilst looking for something else. This is a copy of instructions issued to SCs parading in the City Of London in November 1887.

Hope th works as my first attempt to upload anything.

I think it unlikely that the original picture was of a driver. MSC motor transport was supplied by the HQ Department and known as the AA Section which was formed in January 1915 and went through to the stand down in 1919, so if the SC is H Div he would not have been a driver. The duty band was issued to MSC from the start in 1914 and obvioulsy was worn high on the left arm, I learn something new each day. Badges of rank were worn on the right arm hence the 'white' band in the second picture.

As Vickers mentions the City had their own rules for dress. The Met. always wore the duty band on the left arm. Brassards were made to be worn on the upper arm for visibility - the arm band was not - I think - but open to correction - worn by Specials at this time. They actually were not issued a uniform. The Met. wear the whistle with the hook in the top button hole and the whistle goes into the special small pocket under the second button of the greatcoat and for the tunic, into the top left pocket.

The issue of uniforms to SCs varied widely around the country but the Met were amongst the first if not actually the first to issue uniforms but the early issue was a flat cap, greatcoat and I think trousers (as pictured elesewhere on this site) so hense my thought that this photo of a tunic was towards the end of WW1. Other forces took some time to do much and there were a couple of promptings from the Home Office. In at least one force the headgear issued was something similar to a trilby with a specially produced hat band, I have never seen a photo of one of these but I live in hope, must be one in a force museum somewhere.

Surrey - Suffolk - Sheffield etc. - the 'C' standing for Constabulary - not Constable. SC on early painted truncheons stood for an emergency, locally appointed constable to help the Parish Constable - or, the local Town Force.

Vickers, it is nice to have another point of view - all adds to the general picture. However, I'm wondering if you have ever seen a copy of my book - I show lots of pictures of Special Constabulary truncheons and trace their origins ?

Mervyn

Not knowingly but I have an interest in SC truncheons please let me have details. I would suspect on reflection that SC on this badge is a rank identification and there may have been othes for Sgts, Inps etc.

Simon - I thought I had read from Brian's notes that the badge had come from Stirling - hence my agreement. I see now that it was a suggestion and I agree with you that it could be a number of possibilities. I still think the S.C. will be for a Force.

Mervyn

I would disagree I think SC stands for Special Constabulary but if you are looking for a force how about Surrey Constabulary, they put SC on their painted trucheons, but as to age it need not be a war time issue, thousands of SCs were sworn in for the 1926 General Strike and most were not uniformed but needed to be identified, quickly and cheaply.

Hello Everyone,

Here is a photo of a Special Constable of the Metropolitan Police wearing the Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal. Sorry, the medal is very hard to make out in the photo. This photo was taken at Day's Studios, Hackney (London). The Mets hat badge can be seen in the photo and an example from my collection is shown to the left of the photo. I've added a police whistle and chain in the post and while this has no markings it did come from a Police Constable from H Division, City of London, Bethnal Green Police Station in London's East End.

I like this photo as it shows the hat badge clearly, the whistle's chain and the arm band as well as the Jubilee Medal, I was informed this was taken during the Great War era. From the officer's apparent age I wonder if he had been a regular police officer before the out break of WWI and then joined the Specials. I ask this as I don't know if Special Constables would have been awarded the Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal considering the Specials were instituted for service during WWI. I have two possible dates for the Jubilee (Police) Medal of 1887 and 1897. This would place this officer in the service well prior to 1914. I would really like to hear the thoughts of the membership regarding the possibility of the officer having served in the regular service then joining the specials for the war years. If the Metropolitan Special Constabulary was instituted during WWI then I would say this is a photo of an ex-officer serving in the specials.

Regards

Brian

Brian

This is certainly an interesting photo. H division has always been Metropolitan not City of London but in answer to your question about this man being an ex regular this is absolutely possible. When the SC was set up as a standing force there were 4 sections A to D of which A specials were mainly police pensioners. I have never seen the duty band worn in this way and I am sitting here trying to think which arm the Met wore theirs on because I think it may be on the wrong arm (City of London officers still have the band but it is worn on one side by Pcs and on the other as Sgts) also there are no 'collar numbers', the whistle is being worn in the 'City' fashion rather than the 'Met' fashion and then as worn on the old great coat not tunic and I would have thought a retired regular would have known better, could he have been an ex service man? Finally the use of a tunic may indicate that this is very late in WW1 or possibly afterwards.

Sorry if I touched any raw nerves it was not my intention to sart a discussion on Special/Regualr relationships it was a throw away remark that was intended to show some understanding of the views of Regulars I have know. The relationships between standing forces be they police, armed services, fire or ambulanace are all problematical, have two sides to them and cry out for a Phd if one has not already be written.

Brian

SC Inspectors were/ are not that unusual. Some forces would have more than others but you could probably think in terms of 1 Insp to 3 Sgts to 24 constables. There would then have been administrative Insps and pre 1960s there would have been Sub Insps and Staff Sgts below, above Insp there would have been Chief Inspectors, Superintendents, Chief Superintendents, and Commandants. All this brass always got up the Regulars noses!!

However I have not seen one of these before so very interesting.

You mean the 1980s riots?

Yes

Thankyou Foo and Vickers - now that I have been reminded I had heard of them. I'm trying to work out how you 'detain' someone for 10 mins. when you can't arrest them and have no training ??? Sounds like a comic script - you hang-on for 10 minutes and if no-one arrives to help you stand back and say goodbye ! Of course go over by 30 seconds and he could have you for assault.

Our laws are always so badly worked out - South Africa is the best - the Commissioner has just stated publicly that he expects his men to use lethal force. YEAH ! Way to go...

A little strong for us I think but I know that when a Special of my acquaintance visted Soth Africa some years ago he was told that the Reserves were all right but they should shoot more people. Whilst 10mins seems a short time in most urban areas during the day when PCOs work they would get support within two or three minutes. The point of PCSOs is that the Home Office was concerned that the Public did not see enough police on the street so they first tried to recruit a large number of SCs but there was resitance from both the Regulars and Specials so they came up with what amounts to civilians walking the streets in a unform that from a distance looks as if there are 'proper police' on the streets. At least one force did not want them but was brow beaten by the Home Office to have a nominal number. Had the Regulars not been so anti SC when a suggested expansion of the SC first arose they would not be saddled with PCSOs now.

Very impressive and well beyond my limited knowledege of Ireland. I know most is spoken about the B Specials but is there anything written about the A, C & D's does anyone know?

In passing I watched the B Specials behaviour on TV when the 60's troubles started and when I was a Special Constabulary Serial Commander during the first Brixton riots I used it as an example of what I would not accept from my officers and I am proud to say they all behavioured themselves impecably even when stoned and firbombed.

Also in passing my Grandfather was deployed as part of the British Army in Dublin in 1916 and I have a friend who's Grandfather was on the other side and we often muse on what might have happened had either Grandfather been a better shot.

Leigh - what's a PCSO ?

Known as Plastic PCs, lower on the food chain that Special Constables who actually out rank them. Their hat bands, at least in the Met, are a sort of off white or very light blue. They are very poorly trained and supervised unless they are on a Neighbourhood Team. They have powers to detail someone for 10mins but no power of arrest.

Vickers comments ( welcome to GMIC) are corect in facts - however, care must be taken not to confuse our modern ideas of 'Specials' and have them super-imposed on the past. Policing - such as it was - was multi-layered and Specials were really from the 18th and 19th. C's when public disorder and riots were almost a way of life. Watch and Ward and indeed, the rank of Constable were not as Specials, but as part of the householders feudal and civic duties. Often they paid someone to do this for them - i.e. Petty Constables - but they were never Specials.

The 1663 Act of Common Council was the formation of the 'Bellmen' a paid nightwatch of 1000 men who patrolled from small sentry boxes - mainly retired military, they were fairly useless. Charles 2nd. - who was restored to the throne in 1660 had seen a similar force used effectively in Holland.

The majority of Specials were raised by the different Parishes and if there was no local High Constable to take charge, then this was carried out by the Parish beadle. They had no patrol duties - but, were rather a body of men to deter rioters. They existed only for the period of the emergency and were sworn in by the local magistrate.

Vickers , are you ex-Police or, Special - it's nice to see a new 'face' with an interest in policing ?

With the subject of Specials returning, I am showing a very good example of a Special Constabulary truncheon for the Isle of Man - the letters 'SC' are prominently at the base and at the top the three legged symbol of Manx. This would date from approx. the 1850's and is , of course, Queen Victoria.

Mervyn

Yes I was a Special for a rather long time. You are right that the problem with all this is the muliple layers of people prior to the mid 19c with policing responsibilities / powers and with the number of different ways the appointment of SCs was dealt with in each locality. Generally most SCs were called up for a short period of time and that most people taking part in Watch & Ward were not SCs not least because they appointed deputies to carry out their duties but in some places, City of London for instance, they were often appointed as SCs and particularly so where they had any kind of supervisory responsibilities. I would suggest that 'volunteer' or unpaid policing can be traced back to at least Saxon times with the appointment of certain individuals to oversee the good behaviour of a number of families reporting through to the courts in each Hundred and that is perhaps closer to what we now think of as the SC because of the 1832 Act but the British being an enterprising people used the appointment for for all sorts of things in the 18 & 19th centuries. It was the urbanisation of the population that broke the old system down through sheer wait of numbers in towns, London in particular, although if the City of London had continued with the use of the Trained Bands to enforce the law, alldgely a better system than using the City Marshalls, we might have gone in a very different direction. In the 20th Century of course some small Police Forces used SCs as a cheap means of policing, many seaside places used them to supplement the winter compliment of regulars rather than pay out for more full timers and as I have said before there was also commercial exploitation of the office. Finally of course the Observer Corps were an extention of the concept, all being appointed as SCs.

Thanks again for the additional information, this is perhaps the greatest strength of the GMIC. As far as my collection it starts with the Great War period, of course. Am I to take it that the first full time service started due to the war and before that it was ad hoc?

Regards

Brian

Brian

The 'royal' medals start with WW1 service but the question of standing forces is far more complicated. Certaintly after the SC Act of 1832 and possibly before there were some people who permanetly held SC appointment but probably not in large numbers and almost mainly if not totally without uniform. The issue is also complicated by others with police powers such as Parish Constables, Bow Street Runners and the Thames Police. Many towns operated a Watch & Ward system where residents were supposed to take turns in policing either during the day or at night and many of these people would have been SCs. Commercial operations also made use of the appointment for instance the regular police rank of Chief Constable is said to have first been used by one of the south Wales ports, Swansea I think, who when they first appointed paid police put them under the command of the senior SC and called him Chief Constable.

Odin Mk3

This is a 'charity pin' usually sold to raise money for a particular cause a common pratice within CoLP in the latter years of the 20th century and possibly still going on. They were created by various departments and by the Special Constabulary. They were sold by the hundred and sometimes given away to visitors. The mounted branch still exists.

Gentlemen

Mess Dress was common in UK police forces into at least the 1990s. The City of London force still use it today for formal functions within the City. Some forces retriced the use to very senior officers some like the Metroploitan went as low as Inspector.

Brian

This will be a Charity Pin possible issued by one of the CoLP sports clubs or the Police Federation Branch. I have not seen this one before but there have been several issued by the Regualr force and the Special Constabulary. The sword on the shield is a City Of London emblem/ coat of arms.

Brian

An interesting collection but you are a little out with your background. Special Constables were first mentioned in an Act of Parliament in 1673. They were used on and off as needed for 'Riot & Tumolt' situations until just before WW1 un-uniformed but often in very large number, 200,000 were sworn in on Kennington Common for the 1848 Chartist Marchers. Just before WW1 the SC was put on a more formal footing (City of London formed a standing force in 1909) and uniformed in 1916, probably your first poto is about that time. The SC was stood down after WW1 but promptly reformed (?1920/21) after the regular police went on strike in 1919. From the reforming until 1935 the title was Special Constabulary Reserve, the word Reserve was then droped. At the start of WW2 there was a massive increase in numbers and a shortage of uniforms so back to arm bands for some. The 'royal' Long Service Medal was/ is awarded for 9 years peace time service/ 3 years war time service and the bar for each further 10 years service. The minature in one of your pictures is probably one from Spinks or a competitor as minatures have never, as far as I am aware, been officially issued.