Graham Stewart

Officer - Grenadier Guards; Buttons appear to have the reversed Royal Cypher and below that you can just make out a small grenade.

Just flicking through and noticed this one. Photo 1 - old soldier of the Kings Royal Rifles, three good conduct badges(stripes) and what appear's to be a Boer War ribbon. Second photo difficult to determine, but would think WWI, probably taken early on, hence no cap badge and that totally lost look.

Agree that the others are probably Boer War and possibly relate to the first gentleman,

This is a purely personal point of view and hope not to upset our police colleagues, but in my opinion these two clowns deserved everything they got. Which senior officer in their right mind could expect to be wined and dined and have all the trimmings of "corporate" hospitality and not end up getting their fingers burnt?

I'm not familiar with the treatment of police officers after sickness/injury, but surely if available he(Commissioner) could have opted for physio along with the rest of those lads and lasses who are on the frontline of policing, never mind accepting £12,000 worth of "it's on the house guv - wink,wink,nod,nod".

Sadly it could be the tip of the iceberg and if what Brookes has said, is true and they've regularly paid officers at the Met for info then it's a sad, sad day for all of those who carry out their police duties without batting an eyelid and purely for the love of the job.

I have a great admiration for the police of this country, especially for the frontline troops, but why does it appear that the higher some of these officers get the more removed they seem to become from the reality of "proper bobbying" and their troops, seemingly to concentrate on rubbing shoulders with those who can wine and dine them.

Like this? Pelton Fell (http://www.peltonfell.org.uk/pelton_fell_history.php?page_id=3&id=27)

What a cracking photo of the Pelton Fell, S.J.A.B. members. As you will have noticed at least four of them are WWI veterans and at least one in the back row appears to be a M.M. winner. Pelton Fell is located near Chester-Le-Street, County Durham, my home county. In the background is their local colliery.

Durham was built on "King Coal" and at it's peak over 300 Collieries existed, employing around a quarter of a million men and boys. Nearly every Colliery had an S.J.A.B. section usually made up of mineworkers, who practiced first aid in their leisure time at the Colliery Institute(The "Tute"). I was an S.J.A.B. Cadet at Brandon Colliery and remember that many of the seniors took part in first aid exercises and competitions throughout the county against other S.J.A.B. sections.

Excellent work - as I had a gut feeling this was British rather than Romanian recipient. As those who have served in the UK forces in recent years know, we're so short of specialised ships that the MOD has had to go and hire vessels from shipping companies, supplemented with "volunteer" crews. I think I may be right in saying that we had as many hired vessels for the Falklands War as we had RN/RFA ships.

This is a very nice gulf medal. It appears to be named to a member of the Romanian military hospital. If your looking to do some swapping I'd be interested. Sergeant G G Martin Spital Militar Campanie 100

cheers

Chris

Have tried to find any information regarding this unti in the Gulf War and have drawn a blank to-date. The name G.G.Martin has a very "English" rather than Romanian ring to it and would have thought the Medal Office would have stuck to known abreviations and stamped Sgt G.G. Martin, Sp. Mil. Coy. 100

Any medals awarded to British Forces personnel are preceded by their number, followed by name and unit. Which leads me to say that in all honesty I haven't a clue as to what he belong too. I did have a civilian friend of mine who worked for GCHQ, who was awarded a campaign medal for the last Gulf War, due to the amount of time he spent there in the Green Zone.

Wonder if 'SG' stands for Security Guard??

Only trackable via the Silver War Badge Rolls, which are not available in electronic form.

Sorry Noor - I'll have to take back some of what I've said above as the "Section 'B' of the Army Reserve" you are referring too, is infact a Section of the Regular Army Reserve and as such this is what he was transferred to;-

Section B Reserve

The most common form of army reserve service. For men who had completed their service in the regular army and were serving their normal period (typically of five years) on reserve. Section B reservists could only be called upon in the event of general mobilisation. Pay was 3 shillings and 6 pence a week. He had to attend twelve training days per year.

Your man being a regular who had enlisted in 1908 would have completed his first seven years Colour service in 1915 and would have then have been discharged and transferred to the Army Reserve to complete his five years on the Reserve. However as the War was then taking place this would have been deferred, until such times he could be released.

I was getting confused with a "Class 'B' Army Reserve" introduced during WWI for voluntarily attested men.

Another type for mineworkers who didn't become exempt until after the introduction of the Military Services Act.

Those who attested and then transferred to Army Reserve Class 'B' were usually issued with these cards.

Jeanette,

Don't know if this is against GMIC protocol, but here is link to an art firm with a beautiful print of an 8th K.R.I.Hussar in "marching order";-

http://www.art.com/products/p12372641-sa-i1740636/charles-green-8th-the-kings-royal-irish-hussars-a-trooper-in-marching-order-mounted-on-his-horse.htm

What you can't see is the "busby bag" on the other side of his busby which is red, as is the busby plume. In "parade order" a red horse hair(?) plume would also hang from the horses bridle.

Don't be concerned over the colours in regards to your photo, as in sepia, the colour yellow, which is the colour of his jacket frogging, will appear dark in colour.

Hi Graham,

Thank you for replay! I was actually lucky and got now his pension records! He enlisted from Armagh on the 16th October 1908. Served in India and landed in France with the Battalion on the 19th December 1914 - just like I tought! Also he was from Co.Monaghan - so I got him right in Census as well. Beginners luck!

He had some health issues in India - sandfly, malaria. Also hospitalised to England (Racecourse VA Hospital, Cheltenham) summer 1915 for a almost a month. Fit for a light duty after.

He was sent to the Army Reserve on the 19th April 1919 because Malaria.

Thats interesting as I would have expected him to have been discharged under Kings Regulations Paragraph 392(xvi) or (xvi)a, which covers wounds/sickness. Those in Section 'B' of the Army Reserve were by far and wide, physically fit for service and awaiting call-up. It would appear that as a "regular" soldier and having enlisted under peacetime terms and conditions - 12years service i.e. seven with the Colours and five with the Reserve, then he was wasn't due for complete discharge until 1920. Therefore he must have been medically downgraded to complete his service conditions.

Hi Merv - yes still in Saudi. I forgot to mention his Good Conduct Badge i.e. the inverted chevron below his musketry qualification.

Hussar units are terrible to identify and wonder if Jeanette's earlier post has some clues for us, but like yourself I can't remember seeing it.

Well someone will either confirm or deny this, but my immediate impression is that we're looking at a gentleman serving in a British "Hussars" Regiment, based on the heavily frogged jacket being worn. The photo was obviously taken overseas and I wouldn't be surrpised if it was taken in India. Sadly cavalry regiments and especially Hussars are noted for not wearing insignia with their uniforms, which makes it hard to identify the unit.

From what I remember of Section 'B' of the Army Reserve, it was usually directed to those who were invovlved in important "War Work", with the proviso that they could be possibly called up at a later date.

Many of those who voluntarily enlisted under the "Derby Scheme" in 1915, were duly placed into Section 'B' of the Army Reserve and then were called up in January 1916. These men especially had commitments and jobs which didn't allow then to enlist immediatley hence placing them on the Reserve until required.

I agree with Jeff - even if the recipient has passed-on, immediate family do not part easily with medals. I think this applies generally to most people of British background - and certainly applies in South Africa. There are of course many exceptions - and sometimes they are sold quickly out of necessity - and often greed !

I have agree too, as I still have in possession my great grandfathers(R.F.A.(T.F.) - 14/15 Star, BWM & Victory; my great uncles - (D.L.I./M.G.C.) BMW & Victory; my grandfathers(Durham H.G.) - 39/45 Defence Medal; my dads(Gren Gds) - GSM(Malaya Clasp); my own(L.I./R.E.M.E(Vols) - T.E.M.; and was custodian for my brothers(R.A.) Iraq War Medals until he got married and had them mounted.

Well I'm not 100% certain about this, but if it's anything like the Great War, the training of recruits may have become more centralised and rather than supply to individual regiments, recruits would be sent wherever required. This in effect would dillute the regimental system, but be more efficient regarding reinforcements.

During the Great War a new Corps was formed in 1916 called the "Training Reserve", whose sole purpose was to supply trained reinforcements to the front a.s.a.p.. Among these units you had "Graduated & Young Soldier" Battalions, some of whom were eventually affiliated to regiments, and numbered 51st(Graduated)Bn, 52nd(Graduated)Bn and 53rd(Young Soldier)Bn's of such&such regiment. The idea was they were conscripted at 18yrs of age and posted to one battalion - given basic drill and training before being passed to another battalion for advanced training and eventually posted to Infantry Base Depots overseas. However there was no guarantee that you'd serve with your regiment once you were posted overseas.

Search for 70th(Young Soldier)Bn, Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. The majority of these were disbanded in 1942 and I haven't got my files here to tell you more about them, but you should get numerous hits with this search.

Don't forget these illustrations of the Torrin cap as worn by the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, which were supplied by our fellow member Leigh Kitchen;-

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/25563-the-royal-northumberland-fusilers/page__st__200

Well to be honest I'm not a medal collector, but even to me this is a very odd grouping indeed and this leads me to believe it could be a grouping to someone connected with possibly WWII espionage work. The reason I say this this is because there are no campaign medals in the group, but we have the Bronze Star(U.S.). I could be well off the mark here, but it just doesn't appear to be a "campaign group" and all of these medals would sit equally well with any woman as well as any man, involved in that sort of work.

Graham,

very interesting as I see a Brodrick cap centre standing. So it would appear that the peaked Forage cap was in use at least as early as 1903 and co-existed with the Brodrick.

What a tangled web the British Army weaved

Stuart

Too true, because if you look at the group photo's of the 2nd Bn, NF, in the R.N.F. posts, they're still wearing the Broderick on St.Georges Day, 1907. Just wish I was home to go through my photograph collection and regimental journals for the period as they gave a better representation of what was going on. However I do suspect, that it was a gradual phasing-in of one and phasing out of the other, especially if your battalions were serving abroad.

Graham,

thanks, 1902 has always stuck in my mind but I can't remember where it came from. However, I thought that the Brodrick cap was introduced in 1902 and replaced by a peaked cap in 1905.

Stuart

As it so happens I have a photo of the officers and senior ranks of the 4th Bn, NF taken 1904 and all wear the peaked forage cap. The other two regular battalions were still serving overseas and may not have received theirs until returning home.

For British Army other ranks the new coloured peaked cap for wear with scarlet, appears universally around 1902. I'm back in Saudi so don't know if I have any photo's from that date here with me.

KSA - unforunately I can't find anything from ancestry.

Maybe someone, who has the roles or findmypast access, can check him out?

"2720 PTE J.BYRNE. RL. MUNSTER FUS."

clasps: "South Africa 1901" and "South Africa 1902".

Regards,

Timo

2720 Pte J.Byrne enlisted sometime between September 1888 and April 1889.