Graham Stewart

Leigh,

Looking at the larger photo it is apparent that two O/R's do seem to be wearing a scarlet patrol jacket, while the rest ot their colleagues wear the darker blue patrols. It's quite possible that the two odd men out may be part of the mounted infantry section.Would there be any chance of having the full scale photo e.mailed to me for further investigation???

Leigh,

What a cracker, in particular the varying unifoms being worn. You'll have noticed some are wearing 'blue patrols', but one in particula caught my eye as he appears to be a L/Cpl wearing a 'scarlet' patrol jacket identified by the addition of two breast pockets. I actually have an officers pattern scarlet patrol jacket in my collection, but this is the first time I've seen an O/R's pattern.

On viewing again though it could be my eyes, but it does look lighter.

Tuomas,

I'm no expert on the Middlesex Regt, but a book that would help you out here is Ray Westlakes, "English & Welsh Infantry Regiments", which is basically an encyclopedia of our county regiments. In which he detail's the formation and movements of the Battalions concerned and any changes in title. So it may help you track the battalion up to the outbreak of the Great War.

For information regarding the Middlesex during the Great War, try a website called "The Long, Long Trail" and it's associated Forum called "The Great War Forum". I'm a member of the said group and I'm sure that our Middlesex followers would be only too pleased to help you with any enquiries.

Finally a "Regimental Depot" can be described as the Regiments homebased H.Q. and it's primary peacetime role was the recruitment, training and drafting men to the regular battalions of a Regiment or Corps who were serving away form their homebase. It also supported the Special Reserve and Territorials with a steady supply of regular soldiers, who in the main were Colour Sergeants as instructors.

Regimental Depot's themselves were innovation of the Cardwell Reforms of 1881, as prior to that Depots weren't static and could move from place to place as required by the regiment. With the formation of permanent Regimental Depot's within the County from which regiments recruited, a closer bond between County and Regiment was formed.

Depots also held Regimental Records and especially the Attestation Records of the men they had recruited and the Historical Records of the Regiment itself.

Hope this has answered at least some of your query,

Graham.

Hi Leigh,

It's an unusual cut jacket, and not what you'd expect to see on any Rifle Volunteer or Militia unit, which would be of a better quality and cut. This is why I'm thinking an undress or frock coat.

After 1881 any Militia unit affiliated to either the KRRC or Rifle Brigade would follow their dress patterns, with very little to tell them apart except embroided titles. With the Rifle Volunteers affiliated to the same units it's slightly easier as they tend to have the addition of an Austrian knot on the cuff, but in this case we're not looking at a dress jacket, which makes it that bit harder.

The crossed rifles could be either red in colour(KRRC & affiliates) or apple green(RB & affiliates), but it won't have a date on it. The only additional devices for early Rifle Vols marksmens badges were a four pointed star, which indicated the distance of the shoot, but they're usually worn with a single musket, rather than crossed rifles.

Shooting competition badges weren't to be worn with uniform, but I have a nice photo in my own collection at home of competition badges being worn with a scarlet jacket by a Northumberland Fusilier, but it seems this jacket was only worn at competitions and not generally.

I've forwarded this photo to a guy who has references to other types of jacket being worn at this time to see if he has any idea's.

Hi Paul,

Even that little bit helped. The crossed rifles was standard throughout, the regulars, militia and volunteers, but as all of my copies of regulations are at home can't tell you what grade.

The uniform itself isn't what I expect to see and think it's a form of 'undress' jacket/frock coat of a pattern I'm not familiar with. The dark colour though would probably indicate it's probably 'dark green' rather than scarlet and if so then it's either Kings Royal Rifles or Rifle Brigade. At the same time Militia units or Rifle Volunteer units affiliated to either of these two regular units would wear uniforms relating to that affiliation.

I'll download your scan and pass it onto a friend who has an interest in the more unusual types of uniform. Did this relative have any form of know military service or are you just guessing Militia????

Paul,

Unfortunately there's little to help us out here and it would need a much clearer scan. If you have the original then scan it as normal and then download a programme called 'Microsoft Toys' where you'll find a photo re-sizer programme and use it to re-size your photo. It's a simple right click programme which gives a choice of three sizes, then all you have to do is use the Browse and Upload features here.

However this Microsoft programme doesn't work with Vista, but XP is fine.

Tony - difficult to say really as the felt hat was in use for a number of years by Volunteer units. Facial expressions in my opinion, really can't be used to guage that 'war weariness' look in that sort of photo. They could just have easily done an exercise at Annual Camp with little sleep or they could just be 'hard lads' from an industrial area not used to posing for the camera.

Many photo's from the Great War period were taken not long after getting into uniform and it was priority to get something for the folks back home, as having your photo taken was generally a treat among the working classes.

Going back to what I said earlier about your 'Diggers' here are the 4th Vol Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, Berwick 1909.

Your final photo aren't Diggers at all they're English and a Volunteer Battalion complete with the smasher or felt hat. Note the dress trousers on the one on the right. They're Rifle grey with a fine red welt down them.

This was another possible candidate the 'Bays'. However I'm still not 100% on this one. My other candidate is the Monmouths, which has the full wreath and Dragon & KC, but no battle honours, nor can I find an illustration.

Not a Tanky as theirs has this distinctive shape.

Agree with John its the cap badge of the Middlesex Regiment.

Absolutely brilliant Brian and I'm ever so pleased to see this stuff in safe hands, even if the medals are possibly no longer there. Documents are the bane of most collectors due to storage difficulties, as document holders these days only come in regulated sizes, but most of the documents produced at the turn of the last century come in unusual sizes.

Still it hasn't bothered me and although I still collect militaria to the Northumberland Fusiliers and Royal Regt of Fusiliers, I took the decision a couple of years ago to collect documents, as I've always loved research and so now have over a hundred sets dating from the mid-1800's through to the beginning of the last War.

Although I've done a little research on each individual to-date, my long term plan is to make it a project to explore deeper, when my current project is completed.

I think the Yorkshire link one is the 5th Bn, West Riding Regt and may be a sports/PT badge.

Other books to read regarding Americans in the British Army are;-

"Over the Top" by Guy Empey.

"A Yankee in the Trenches" - R. Derby Holmes.

"Shellproof Mack" - Arhur Mack. Haven't read this one and have only been notified of it's existence.

There's at least two others that I know of written by Amercans serving in the British Army during that time and I have them both at home but can't think of the titles and I'm thousands of miles from there. I'll get those other titles and pass them on to you a.s.a.p.. They do make excellent reading, being frst hand accounts of American citizens who served in the British Army.

He is one of the many thousands of American citizens who defied the U.S. Governments stand on neutrality, who either enlisted into the Canadian or British Army to serve during the Great War of 1914-18. So exsasperated was the U.S. Government at these brave young men who defied their elected rulers will, that the U.S.G. threatened to have them stripped of their citizenship.

It is estimated that over 30,000 Americans actually served on the Western Front before the U.S.G. eventually became part of the Allied alliance in 1917. On America joining the Allies many of these men went over to serve in the U.S.Forces, while others remained with their British and Canadian colleagues, and as a result all Americans who enlisted into and served with the Empire Forces were entitled to wear the illustrated medals(and others) with great pride.

Be honoured to have them and treat them with the respect they deserve. :beer:

For the Hansard/Shackleton link all I did was Google "RAF aircraft losses 1955" and it came up with the Hansard report discussing the loss in Parliament.

Although not associated with your original enquiry, I managed to find this link in relation to the loss of Alan Clare who disappeared in 1955 along with other crew members of two Shackleton Aircraft of the R.A.F., which may be of interest to you if not already known about;-

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons...n-aircraft-loss

As far as I'm aware the original Companies of Imperial Yeomanry left South Africa in 1901 and the new Companies of Imperial Yeomanry(123rd to 177th), were formed and were known as the "second contingent". These were formed without connection to their parent units and so only three of the Companies were I believe were given sub-titles(175th(Irish Horse), 176th(Irish Horse) & 177th(Fincastles Horse)), whereas nearly all of the "first contingent" Companies,I.Y. had a sub-title.

The second contingent began arriving in South Africa around 1902, so I would think(although not 100% certain) he would have still qualified for a KSA.

Thomas Clare isn't an uncommon name from the NorthWest, but among the National Archives was a 1332 Trooper Thomas Clare serving with the Cheshire Yeomanry. Considering he previously served in the I.Y., then he may have gone on to serve in the Cheshire Yeomanry during 1914-18. Do you have any photo's we could possibly view, which show badges etc???

Seemingly it's gone into abeyance and the problem seems to be on the other side of the Atlantic. The European side was continually sending amendments to upgrade the site, regarding British formations, but very little, if anything was being done to it.

There was an idea in the pipeline that they may actually produce a published work that would supersede Frederick's massive two volume work "Lingeage of the British Land Forces". If that did happen, then it would be a monumental work considering the changes since 1992 to the British infantry alone. Fredericks himself only ever covered the Infantry & Artillery and never completed his work on the Corp's, but apparently all of his notes still exist and are held in an American institution.

I'll try and contact one of the site producers and see if I can get a clear answer.

Using an alternate source I've managed to find out that he was actually 4th Bn, Welsh Regt(TF). which used the new 1917 block numbers 200001 - 240000.

Copies of the Army List would be found in practically every Military institution within the British Isles(and Military attaches abroad), as they were a reference to all serving(or retired) officers. An officers career can be tracked through the Army List from the day he is commissioned until his removal.

The Army List itself also came as Quarterly or Half Yearly editions, which are huge and would often consist of either three or six monthly AL's.

Your copy of the Army List is regarded as the most common type and often referred to as Part I. The rarer half of the AL is often referred to as Part II are the Officers biographies. They're regarded as an excellent source of research material for those interested in the British Army and it's officers.

5779 Pte Henry William Randall(or William Henry) was infact a Territorial in the Welsh Regt and this is why he has two numbers. The second six figure number was issued in Jan 1917, and all Territorials at that time had their regimental numbers changed from four figure to six figure. Sadly I don't have my notes with me or I could have told you which Battalion he was serving with from the six figure number.

As it is the both Medal Index Cards and Medal Roll Books are littered with clerical errors, but are still a fantastic source for both researchers and family historians.

Brilliant TI. I'll add those names to the original photo and when I 'pop me glogs' and it ends up passed on at least the new owner will have something to go on.