Doc

I highly doubt that it is Czech-- as far as I am aware, she never even visited there, and certainly never served with their armed forces. She served with French, Spanish, and Italian forces at various times, but I believe this is some kind of French uniform. Doc

Looks like a tropical thing of some sort.

Possibly, but what service or function? I can't see the hat badge well enough to identify it, and whatever's on the right collar is also indistinct. As far as I know, this lady never served in the tropics, though she did spend time in North Africa..... Doc

Does anyone have any idea what this uniform could represent? It is either WW2 French or conceivably inter-war. Thanks for any suggestions. Doc

Hi,

If anyone can add any info to this man i would be pleased to hear from you,obviously he served with the balloon section during the siege of Paris which would make a relatively common medal a rarity.

hope you like

Steve

Several years ago, I did a study on all the Balloons which left Paris during the siege, including all the balloon names and the names of their pilots/passengers. His name does not appear on the list of those who flew out of Paris, and just as an off-chance I checked the names of the balloons, and none of them were named similarly to his name. Many of the pilots were Matelots (sailors), but other Matelots served on ground crews-- he must be one of them. Sorry not to have more information. Doc

During the Viet-nam War, Air Medals were given for heroism, but also for a certain number of combat flight hours. I don't remember the number, as it changed in different periods, but helicopter pilots of that era who flew lots of hours commonly had 20+ air medals. 34 is not at all unbelievable. Doc

My information comes from my brohter-in-law serving in Iraq whose unit NCOs were told that if they get wounded three times they are sent homeside. He's an NCO, so the other ranks may or may not know. But for that particular division / regiment (???) it seems to be a policy. So I will backstep a bit on a total picutre. He got hit three times, the second one was a slight shrapnel wound that the medic was able to fix up for him, but he didnt get it reported further than that as he was afraid that he would get hit soon and then sent back while his men needed him. He did get hit a third time with a through and through gunshot wound. But he was able to stay in country and finish up his term.

Sounds like a good source, so I can't argue with you. However, it sounds like a local unit policy, and I really wonder how they could actually carry it off, since there is no published policy on the subject. Glad your brother in law managed to finish his tour, and apparently wasn't hit too badly. Doc

As I recall the esteemed Senator and former Presidential candidate from Massachusetts was rotated out of Vietnam for having been awarded three Purple Hearts. I can not say if this was by regulation or Department of the Navy policy. It was a bit of a talking point and became rather contentious. The "Swift Boat" veterans were particularly vocal and unsupportive...

I will leave my personal feelings a mystery in an attempt to avoid subsequent political rantings from both sides.

Keeping out of the politics, that rotation was neither by Navy policy nor by regulation. I know of several Naval personnel with three or more PH in Viet-nam who were not rotated out. Doc

From what I understand - today you cant get more than two oak leaf clusters in a conflict beofre you get sent home...

Hunyadi--- I haven't ever seen any Army regulation or policy to that effect. Do you have a reference you can provide? Doc

At least for the Army, the most bronze oak leaf clusters which can be worn is 4 (representing PH awarded 5 times). If you are unlucky enough to get hit again after that, the 4 bronze clusters plus the new award are represented by a silver oak leaf cluster, so the basic award plus a silver cluster equals 6 awards. Then you can have silver plus 1-4 bronze for more awards, and then it would go to two silver. If you have that many, I don't want to be in a foxhole with you, because you are a real bullet magnet. Doc

Just one more thought - I understand your desire to do it the "official" way and I've been known to push the system myself on numerous occasions. Problem here is substantiating not the entitlement but that the medal was never issued. You may find that to be borderline onerous and frustrating. (And you might not succeed). At the end of the day ? if you are successful, you will receive exactly the same gong(s) that you would be purchasing at the uniform sales store. If he has been issued medals and has lost them ? a reissue is nearly impossible in my experience so you will again find yourself at the uniform sales store. Just a few learnings from my experience for you to consider.

Regards,

wem

PS they are not nearly as expensive as you might imagine after collecting medals as many here have done. As I recall - $15 or so gets you campaign or more common medals.

Actually, the US government doesn't normally ask if the medals were previously issued. If you have the DD214 saying that you are entitled to them, and tell the government that the medals were lost, are missing, etc., they will reissue them to you-- At least for anything lower than MOH. I got my father's medals replaced that way after they were lost in a move. PX or other purchase sources are still available, but why use them if the government will replace them? Doc

"cyq" is the maker's mark. Sorry I don't have my references directly at hand, but that is all the marking you will find on these. It does appear to be Waffenamt marked, so it was an issued piece. Bring-back versus imported later?-- No way to tell. Unless it was marked with importers marks (not required post-war in the US) or a re-proofing (like in the UK), there is absolutely no way to tell. Several of my P-38s have those grips-- don't know what to say except that they are pretty common, perhaps were a standard replacement? I agree that the "O" after the serial number is simply part of the serial block. A good shooter piece, if it hasn't been deactivated. Doc

Since you have contact with the previous owner, it would be useful to get more information from him about when and where it was worn. As noted previously, the shoulder patch is 4th Army, which I don't think was ever in Viet-Nam. More importantly, in 30 years in the US Army, starting 1971, I have never seen shoulder patches worn on this type of coat. Perhaps it was worn in a garrison environment in the US prior to that, but I have never seen it. Doesn't mean it is not real, but I would certainly ask questions. Doc

Does anyone know if 965 Squadron Balloon Barrage (UK) was stationed in Belgium in 1945? If so, where? Thanks for any assistance. Doc

Sorry for the double image in the last post-- I was trying to do this one as the second image. Doc[attachmentid=34082]

Can anyone help me identify any of the ribbons on this ribbon bar? It is French, and probably ranges from WWI through the Colonial Wars to post-ww2. The photo is came off of is dated post WW2, but I know this individual earned medals for WW1 and Colonial Wars. Sorry for the quality-- had to reduce them to fit on the site. Thanks for any assistance. Doc[attachmentid=34080] [attachmentid=34080]

Hi Guys,

Can anyone tell me what a Challange Coin is for?

BJOW

In the US Army at least, they really started to be common following their introduction during the Viet-Nam war (I think originally in some of the SF units). The concept of a "challenge coin" was originally as noted by other members (see the link provided by Coastie, though I am not sure that story is actually true)-- a way to build unit esprit and get some free drinks. About 20 years ago, though, the concept moved way beyond unit pride ("See, I have the coin of my unit, and I'm proud of it) to almost an unofficial awards system. There are now coins not only for units, but for individuals-- I have seen Commanding General's Coins, Command Sergeant Major's Coins, etc. Although orginally I think they were used at Group (i.e. regimental for you Brits) level, they have metastacised, and I have seen sub-company level coins. They are given out as an unofficial "Attaboy!" to someone who has done well, or to a high-ranking visitor to your unit. Sort of like the old certificate of Achievement/Appreciation, but without any paperwork or need to have it approved at a higher level.

In my humble opinion (30 years in the US Army), they have become nearly meaningless-- sort of like wall plaques for units you have been in or visited. Souvenirs. Many people collect them, and try to get all the ones from a specific base or in a specific larger unit (e.g. Division)-- They sit on coffee tables, and some people have gone so far as to make/buy racks to show them off in.

So now they are sort of souvenirs and sort of unofficial awards (which can never be documented, as there is no paperwork and no records). Personally, I always preferred to get my deserving troops real awards, which would help them in their apprearances before promotion boards. Doc

As we've discussed in the other thread (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6261 -- and shouldn't this duplicate thread be merged into that one over in "internationa", where it belongs?), the documentation -- if it survives -- may be in Rabat, it may be in Madrid, it may be in Ceuta, it may be in Melilla, or it may not be.

Thanks to all for the responses. I have no problem with combining the two threads. I was just trying to hit people who might be looking only at one list or another. Doc

Oops !!! Just realized as I reread my post ... wrong medal !

This is the one you meant :

Created on 21 November 1927 by the Spanish government to commemorate the campaign in Northern Morocco (Rif mountain area) in which both French and Spanish troops took part. The adversaries were the tribes led by Abd-El-Krim and the campaign lasted between 1 July 1925 and 23 July 1927.

Apparently some 200.000 military (half of them French, the other half Spanish) were involved over the years.

The French government approved the wearing of this medal by their military by a decree dated 3 April 1930.

The star on the ribbon is believed to be a Moroccan symbol (and not a Star of David as it is sometimes referred to).

Perhaps interesting too : the French were originally led by Field-Marshal Lyautey but later on by FM P?tain of WW1 and Verdun fame.

Picture of the medal on a Spanish suspension bar below

[attachmentid=32265]

Thanks Hendrik! A Spanish Medal.... No wonder I couldn't track it down in France. Do you have any idea as to who might have the official list of recipients? Thanks a lot. Doc

I would assume that surviving records, if any, on the Nishan Iftikhar would be in the Tunisian national achives in Tunis:

While the legal status of the M?daille de la Paix du Maroc is more obscure (is it "French" or is it "Moroccan"?), I would, in any case, start by looking in the Moroccan national archives in Rabat:

Those who expect all relevant records to be on-line or in European archive are usually disappointed. Real research is usually hard work (but in interesting locations).

Thanks very much for the contact information. I will give it a try. As regards the Medaille de la Paix du Maroc, I am not sure if it is considered Moroccan or French, but my French contacts can't find out any information about it. So, I will try Rabat. Thanks again. Doc.

Good afternoon.

I am researching an individual who reportedly received two medals in the 1930s-- La M?daille de la Paix du Maroc, and the Nichan Iftikhar de Tunis. Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether any lists of recipients exist, and where I might find them? Both were issued under French Colonial Rule, but I so far have not been able to find any such lists, or criteria for award. Thanks. Doc

I am also looking for illustrations/photos of these two awards, if anyone has them. Thanks. Doc

Good afternoon.

I am researching an individual who reportedly received two medals in the 1930s-- La M?daille de la Paix du Maroc, and the Nichan Iftikhar de Tunis. Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether any lists of recipients exist, and where I might find them? Both were issued under French Colonial Rule, but I so far have not been able to find any such lists, or criteria for award. Thanks. Doc

Additionally, I am looking for illustrations of them, if anyone has them. Thanks. Doc

Good afternoon.

I am researching an individual who reportedly received two medals in the 1930s-- La M?daille de la Paix du Maroc, and the Nichan Iftikhar de Tunis. Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether any lists of recipients exist, and where I might find them? Both were issued under French Colonial Rule, but I so far have not been able to find any such lists, or criteria for award. Thanks. Doc

Good afternoon.

I am researching an individual who reportedly received two medals in the 1930s-- La M?daille de la Paix du Maroc, and the Nichan Iftikhar de Tunis. Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether any lists of recipients exist, and where I might find them? Both were issued under French Colonial Rule, but I so far have not been able to find any such lists, or criteria for award. Thanks. Doc

You are misreading the regulations. The distinction under current law is not wartime vs. peacetime, but action against an enemy/opposing foreign force vs. not. As 10 U.S. Code ? 3741, and the parallel statute for the Navy, 10 U.S. Code ? 6241, and Air Force, 10 U.S. Code ? 8741, note, the Medal may be awarded: (1) while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; (2) while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or (3) while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

Category 1 normally obtains only during wartime when there is a declared enemy.

Category 2 may be in wartime or peacetime; the distinction is conflict with an opposing foreign force. Both Somalia Medals of Honor fall into this category, as Aideed's militiamen were an opposing foreign force, but there was no declared war and the Somalis were not the enemy. An even clearer case is William L. McGonagle, USN, of the USS Liberty, whose ship was attacked by the Israelis in international waters. There was a war going on, but the U.S. was not a party.

I don't know of any Category 3 awards as the opportunities would be small. U.S. exchange officers and NCOs have found themselves in conflicts where the U.S. was not a belligerent, such as Malaya during the Emergency, but these situations are uncommon. There was some talk of awarding the Medal of Honor to a U.S. sailor serving with the Special Boat Service in Afghanistan, but the U.S. was a belligerent party there. In any event, he received the Navy Cross. Andy mentioned him a few posts up. But for purposes of this post, note that this category requires that it is the friendly foreign force that is in armed conflict, while the U.S. may be at peace.

Also, these regulations are post-1963 (Public Law 88?77, ? 1(1), July 25, 1963). Until 1942, I believe, the Navy allowed peacetime awards for noncombatant heroism (many of these 19th century lifesaving awards).

The most famous non-combatant recipients of the Army Medal of Honor would be Adolphus Greely, whose award is arguably the least justified ever, and Charles Lindbergh. With Frederick William Gerber, whose peacetime award was for "distinguished gallantry in many actions and in recognition of long, faithful, and meritorious services covering a period of 32 years," these are the only "peacetime" recipients of the Army Medal of Honor.

Dave, thanks for the clarification, but I am not sure we are really arguing more than semantics here. The original question was whether the MOH can, under todays rules, be awarded in peacetime. You seem to define peace as anything when war has not been declared (categories 2 and 3). Category 1 does, as you state, only apply in case of declared war. However, Peace is not defined by the absence of a declaration of war. I interpret category 2 as being war, even though not declared. This issue was discussed specifically during my time at the Army War College, and it was pointed out that legally war can take place even in the absence of a formal declaration-- In fact, I don't think the US has had a formally declared war since WW2, and I have real problems trying to define Viet-Nam, Korea, Somalia, etc., not to mention current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as peace. To the soldier on the ground, when an enemy soldier is trying to kill you, that's war, not peace. In my mind, stating that the award can today be awarded for actions during "peacetime" simply justifies the types of awards given to Greely, Lindburgh, and Gerber. Today, they can be given only for actions involving conflict, whether or not a formal state of war exists (i.e. if it has been declared). My original comments basically were trying to address the issue of could a strictly peactime act (no conflict, no shooting, no enemy-- e.g. Lindburg, Greely) be considered worthy of the MOH, and I think that both of us agree that is no longer possible. Doc

It is ordained that the Cross shall only be awarded for most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy

This is not the case for the Medal of Honour as it can be awarded in peacetime.

Not to get into the issue of which is "better", but I don't know where this concept that the MOH can be awareded in peacetime came from.

To quote from AR (Army Regulation) 600-8-22, 25 February 1995

Para 3-6

a. The Medal of Honor, section 3741, title 10, United States

Code (10 USC 3741), was established by Joint Resolution of Congress,

12 July 1862 (amended by acts 9 July 1918 and 25 July

1963).

b. The Medal of Honor is awarded by the President in the name

of Congress to a person who, while a member of the Army, distinguishes

himself or herself conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity

at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while

engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; while

engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing

foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged

in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the

United States is not a belligerent party. The deed performed must

have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous

as to clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades and must

have involved risk of life. Incontestable proof of the performance of

the service will be exacted and each recommendation for the award

of this decoration will be considered on the standard of extraordinary

merit.

No way can it be awarded for actions during peacetime!! (at least not according to current regulations). Doc