Hun Helmet

Gentlemen I've been had. The canteen assembly I got today is not all original. There are at least two East German components on the rig and I have documented this with photos and compare them with originals and an East German example.

Good thing there is an inspection period as it is going back to seller for a refund. Note: The seller probably had no idea. I hope he did not pay too much for it at the gun show years ago as I was told.

First photo is of my reproduction canteen cover rig however the metal components parts are original as verified by Ken at German Helmets Inc from who I bought it from.

At left is an East German Cover Center is the Ebay cover and right is my reproduction canteen strap with the original components.

Last photo is of the pin when they were standard green.

photo

Photo

Welllllll guys, I am not having much luck trying to match the repro pins to the finish of the helmet. Any suggestions? I think it looked better with the green pins before I messed with them.

Hard to find that leather in good condition anymore.

mike

Another Prussian Guards helmet sold on ebay. There seems to be a little yellowing of the white insignia.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A%3AIT&rd=1

Mike

I already do have one canteen but it's for re enacting. I figure I'd wait around and try to score a canteen for 15 to 20 USD and then put together I'd have a canteen set much better then anything they even have up at collectors guild at around the same value or a little more. That was why I paid so much for it.

I saw a late war canteen go last week on ebay for a mere 12.50

Mike

What I thought was an exceptional example. Any reason to doubt it's authenticity? I don't think so but am asking just in case. Auction is over, I won it by sheer force of will

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A%3AIT&rd=1

Mike

What do you guys think of this looker? It's not complete but I could round up a chin strap and add a liner cord I already have.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A%3AIT&rd=1

Again I had to pay top dollar, I am finding the best strategy on ebay is to just throw your money around

Mike

Mike,

I saw the helmet for a brief period of time before it was re-sold and never saw it again. I didn't have a camera with me at the time (pre-digital days), and consequently couldn't document it.

Les

I hope it was not re faked and then sold

Mike

Well yes but I will need to add something to it so it will fit. I can just sew it on but I don't have any period materials. I got the mask from Great War militaria. Think I paid a bit too much for it considering.

Mike

Well I am going to track down the winning bidder of that guards helmet so he can consider what was said here. He can always have German Helmets inc.com check it out. If it's bad maybe he can get his money back.

Mike

Mike,

Two comments:

(1) the one with the Hohenzollern crest has the correct style crest without the little black border seen in Baer's book. However......I don't think this particular one is good. If you do an archives search here on GMIC a while back I posted a grouping that belonged to a KIA officer of the 1te G.R.z.F. and a camo helmet with the correct crest on it. In that photo you can even see where the camo had been applied over the first crest, and another painted on. Take a look at mine for one that's what it's cracked up to be.

One of the things I've noticed about genuine helmets with the Hohenzollern crest is they tend to be small, and are hand-painted. The lines where white/black meet are seldom all that straight.

What I look for on anything with old white paint, is the color, and texture of the paint. Almost all paints used at that time were lead-based (for adhesion to metal, etc, and smoothing the surface out). This gives some paints (particulary white) a thick look), and also over time, white starts to loose it's "pure white" appearance quickly through contact with dirt, grime, and so on, and begins turning a off-white/cream color.

If you picked this one up, there's a quick test that can be done on the paint(s) that is completely non-destructive. Environmental consulting firms that test for, and remove lead based paints from homes, buildings, etc, often use what looks like a radar gun to test for lead. They calibrate the machine, and if held up to something, it not only provides information whether lead is present, but in what percentages. The cost for doing this kind of test is less than you'd pay on lunch at a fast food outlet.

The base color of the helmet should have lead as a siccative to adhere to the bare metal, and either the black or white paint should also. If you get it tested, and -no- lead is present, send that baby back.

(2) A story....

About ten years ago, I was at a gun show, and had a table with a few items set up near the front door. Rick Keller of Great War Militaria came over and while talking to me, stepped behind my table and I was standing facing him on the "crowd" or public side. I saw him looking at someone, and he yelled "Is that for sale, and what's the price on it?". I turned around and saw someone starting to hand Keller a cut-out helmet with the crown down....at -my- table. Keller took the helmet and the guy told him the moment he handed it to him, $600. Keller paused less than five seconds, reached for his wallet and gave the guy the money.

I was a bit annoyed that it was my buying/sellign space, and not even given the chance to sniff the item before someone else stepped in and bought it. I got a chance to look at it once the sale was over, and the rim looked good, size markings were correct, etc, paint looked like it matched the rest of the helmet, and so o n.

Before the show was over, Keller sold the helmet to a good friend of mine for $800.

About six months later, my friend accidentally knocked the helmet off a shelf. It hit the floor, and part of the inside rim cracked and came right off the helmet! It was a carefully done fake that was cut, rolled, and another piece of metal had been soldered onto the inner rim of the cut out and then smoothed out and carefully painted.

The mighty morphin Czech helmet fakers had done an amazingly good job and if it hadn't been for the accidentaly drop/break, my friend might still have that fake helmet.

He got his money back, but it took time and the dealer who was innocent of any person wrong doing fought repayment like a whale about to be beached near a rendering plant.

Les

I did not pick up the Guards helmet just the cut out. Do you have any photos of that faked cut out? It seems when good fakes are found they should be documented.

If I have a faked cut out it's top of the line fake. I am positive it's been refinshed. I don't think it's a faked helmet. ALL the fakes I have seen were unlike the real ones. The flare on the cut out is really hard to get right.

mike

Well I got another email from German helmets Inc after sending in more details and photos. I was told the shell is good so I am not letting it go back to seller. The rust spots I was told are in conclusive and the liner holes not having any paint wear is a problem I was told. The lack of pressing marks on the skirt I was told is normal. Not every helmet has them but with me only having a dozen or so helmets in my hand I would not have known this.

German Helmets inc told me that even if it was repainted the sale price is still in the right neighborhood.

My feeling is the helmet was re done but since it's fooled even the experts with the photos I can't place any blame on the seller. It took me 24 hours to start to think it was a repaint.

mike

Another on the outside. Photo is not very good but best I can do.

It would appear that it sat level and upside down for a long time. Perhaps in a leaky barn where water accumulated in it or being used as a planter in a vets home. Yes they did this. There is a rust line level with the vents. When the water reached that level it would leak out, but below that it would just sit there creating some heavier rust. I still don't believe it was refinished. Sitting upside down in a leaky barn would do this to the inside but the outside paint would not be affected much since the water that leaked out would dry fairly quickly.

Dan Murphy

Dan,

The more I look at this helmet the more it bothers me. I got word back from German Helmets inc. and the report was the helmet is good across the board and that if they were selling it that would have been about the sale price. This is based on the photos in the auction and the ones I sent in.

However take a look at these two photos below. Two rust spots that seem out of place. In the photos you see patina and remnants of green paint. But I really think it's a fantastic paint job by one of the helmet artists out there.

What do you think of the rust spots? Also notice the rust on the inside of the air vent. It's pure un altered rust. I should think the entire helmet should look like that. It's noticable on the outside of the vents too.

Mike

Hallo Mike,

do you think it was in the ground for a while, seems to be considerable pitting to my inexperienced eyes

Kevin in Deva

I don't think it was in the ground for any amount of time. Just kept someplace in less then ideal conditions.

Mike

Also..... Look at the inside, it seems to me that this helmet had to be re finished post war and that a re finish during WWII as was suspected would show a lot more wear and paint degrading ten it does. In the ebay photos the inside looked rust brown and un finished.

I can return the helmet for refund but won't if the shell is at least good.

Mike

I got the helmet today! Two things bother me about it. One when I hold the helmet up by one finger in the center to it's balanced in the air and knock on it the sound is dead. When I do this with my BF64 it rings a bit like a bell.

Two, I don't see the normal stretch or pressing marks I normally see on M16's.

The cut out has a cast metal feel although I am sure it was pressed. This could be from the coating of something that was applied. The feel of the helmet is a little different then most of my others. Same weight it seems but a different feel to it.

The two issues made me nervous enough that I am having Ken at German helmets inc check it out. I should get word back after work tonight.

mike

I was struck at how nice the finish still is. Looks newer then my 1939 luger.

Mike

haha you bet. I pay monday and he ships next day.

Check out this one here. A guards helmet. I kept quiet about this one too. Did not bid but had a gut feeling it was good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A%3AIT&rd=1

If it did not have that bullet hole I might have won it. Then I'd be sunk on the cut out.

Mike

Well as predicted it's starting, the fake calls LOL

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...d=1#post1514199

For the record I think the poster is way off base and irrational. I have no idea what motivates people to flap their jaw in such manner.

Course not Dan! I am sure it's a good one. You were sure. But I am sure, or almost sure someone will say it's bad LOL That would be a given on MCF but I can't post it there.

Looking for a consensus before I send payment. I'd gladly eat bad feed back if it was a bad helmet after all and someone pointed out something we missed.

Now the trick is getting it to me with out any thefts or hankey pankey by the seller. Hope it all goes smooth. That's a LOT of money

Mike

This was a hard fought battle. Worked 3 hours over time last night, came home got three hours of sleep, forced myself to get up and bid at the last minute. Any fake bells going off?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...N%3AIT&rd=1

Mike