Hun Helmet

I just got a 98 k rifle and it was free so that's why I had not researched it prior. I know many were Russian Capture and I am not sure about this one. It has two Nazi Proof Marks intact. Made in 1938 and is in good condition. The Bolt was numbered with an engraving tool as you would mark your personal property with. The Site is not hooded. What does this say? Russian Capture? Or does the fact the nazi proof marks are stil intact say something else?

Sorry no photos I just got it.

Mike

My question is, was it required by regulation to remove the Feldm?tze when entering into a private home, business or generally indoors as it is removing one's cover with most militaries today?

I ask because I've seen period photos with some German's wearing them in dugouts. Also in Movies they are wearing them inside entertainment halls Etc. It seems it was the Soldat's call on this as I've seen some wearing them and some not.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Mike

Mike,

Austrian and German brow plates are all the same size; there's no difference and a German plate can fit an Austrian helmet, or vice versa. The Austrian plates have cloth straps (the German ones are usually leather) and other than the paint color (Austrians used brown to match the helmet), Austrian plates sometimes turn up with a cloth glued or pasted on the front surface of the plate.

Austrian helmet lugs are the same as the German ones, and if there is any difference, the helmet was probably repaired at a later date. If you check ebay for example, replacement lugs (one type only) are available for sale these days. I've come aross German helmets with one or both lugs missing, and where lugs have been replaced.

Les

Les,

I know what you are saying. I am sure my air went lugs were installed no latter then WWII, if they were not done during WWI. But the other fellow has a size 64 like mine with lugs that are not stepped. And they should be for a size 64. You find the straight lugs with no step on the size 66 or larger.

I chalked it up to my vents being replaced post war by the Germans as frontal plates did not seem to matter after Trench warfare was obsolete but then I see another helmet inked as a size 64 just like mine with lugs that appear to be original to the helmet in great war configuration.

I suppose they might have run out of the stepped lugs and used what they had on hand but I'd think if it would cause problems with using the frontal plate they might be rejected by QC.

Mike

Mike,

The "step" is used to create a specific space for the attachment of a one-size-fits-all "Stirnpanzer" or brow plate to any of the mid to later war German/Austrian/Hungarian WWI helmets, with the exception of the Austrian made Berndorfer. The smaller the helmet size, the large the "step" is so the distance between the contact points on the brow plate and helmet remains constant. A size 66 or 68 helmet doesn't have the step. A size 64 has a small one, and the "largest" step of all is found on a size 60.

An aside on Austrian helmets in the US. They are relatively common in Pennsylvania and Ohio, because American national guard units from those two states found themselves up against Austrian troops first near the St. Mihiel sector, a few weeks later in the Meuse-Argonne, and then during the last days of the war, US units rotated out of the Meuse-Argonne were sent back to the St. Mihiel sector to "hold the line" and were back in contact with Austro-Hungarian troops ----again.

The Austrians capitaulated on November 4, 1918, a week before the Germans did. Austrian units on the western front simply dropped much of their gear and headed for the rear, and American troops finding "dumped" helmets and field gear were less than hesitant about picking up easily acquired souvenirs that wound up back in their home towns, and states they came from.

I had numerous Austrian, and "Hungarian" variant helmets, with and without camo patterns. Prices vary, however, there is a considerable market in Italy for Austrian helmets, and those in prime condition with factory ink acceptance stamps are usually snapped up by the Italian collectors and dealers.

Prices on these? I try to avoid saying some one else's item is worth "x" amount. Value or price is a highly subject matter in many cases. Instead of putting a price tag on yours, I'd say it was a good mid-range piece, that is a solid example of what an Austrian helmet looks like, but doesn't show some of the more unual features often found on other examples (for instance the use of colored gingham or other fabrics for the "pillow" holders, and cloth pockets. Some of the materials used on Austrian helmets can get downright bizarre.

Les

Hi Les,

I know what the air vent lugs are also used for, the extra frontal armor plate. But what I don't understand is my size 64 Austrian lid has the lugs normally found on the size 66 or larger helmets. I thought mine had been replaced by the wrong sized lugs when the nazi's made it a transitional helmet but now I see another original helmet with the same lug set up. Any idea why the Austrians would do this? Was their armor plates different then the Germans? I think they were. This can be the only explanation?

Mike

Thanks for the nice comments gentlemen. At the time I only bought it because I wanted at least one example of an Imperial lid, German or Austrian it didn't really matter! I suppose I should tell you how much it set me back.....all of $450AU.

Thanks for the advice on the "A" stamp Tony, I had a feeling it may have been a batch number of some kind. There's also a very faint square ink stamp inside the apron, and another faint size stamp which I think is 64. I heard somewhere that the majority of these helmets were dumped after the war, can anyone confirm this?

Come on Dan....don't keep us in suspense! Show us your camo!!

cheers

Jason

What do you mean dumped after the war? I know the Nazis took a lot of them for transitionals.

Now I want to bring up an oddity. Your helmet is inked as a size 64 I assume? Mine is stamped a size 64 and just like your helmet mine has the same air vent lugs. They are not stepped, the are what you would only find on a German size 66 or better.

I asked Ken at german helmets inc. about this and he drew a blank. Had no idea. Anyone shed any light on this?

Mike

Thanks Mike! The fellow I picked it up from specialized in headgear, mainly helmets and peaked caps, and was quite the expert before he sold the lot, so I'm pretty happy its original, however a second opinion never hurts. I'll have one of the other helmet guys down here have a closer look at it.

cheers

Jason

Right. I know that Austran helmet pads had the gromets and used the white leather however that does not mean they also did not use another set up as well.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I was offered a nice M-18 single decal at the same time for less money than this one, but passed on it!

In your opinion what do you think this one may be worth?

cheers Jason

Assuming it's all original they go for over 1000 USD all the time. On second look I don't know about that liner.

The pads should be the same as the german M17 with gromets in them for the tie string. Have an expert look at it. Rest of it looks fine.

Mike

Wow now I really have to have one. I been eye balling a repro for my mostly repro German kit for reenacting. maybe I will have to send payment now. I think it would look great in display with my helmets.

As for what's in the old masks, reneactors have been known to put them on and get a slight mustard gas exposure. Ouch! When using them in the current trenches I hear they hollow out the filters.

Mike

Great example. One of the best I've seen in fact. That is worth quite a bit. I settled for a refurbished Austrian example.

Mike

Nice! I have a Winchester P17 with an eddystone bolt. Some collectors insist it's a M1917 Enfield and is never called a P17, so I recently was told.

Mike

Thanks BYF ...Four years ago I met a local old-timer who just won a round with Cancer. He had a nice Collection and but selling it all off. I ended up with a nice Trapdoor, a 1900 Krag , 2- 1903's, a P-17, an H&R Garand and an M1 Carbine , 2 Mausers, a Lend Lease Enfield and 1-Jap 99 carbine ..all for $2,900.00 ! For that money ...I decided to "broaden" my collection a little. Besides , when I setup Public displays ..the spread of US Inf weapons comes in handy. It's nice showing the "evolution" of the US Infantry Rifle ..the Vet's like it. The deals are still out there but , it's getting harder to find them.

The Uzi,Sterling,Semi Thompson, Semi Mac 11 ,M1A etc are all my plinkers ...plinkers are a good thing

Fantastic collection there. Can we get a photo of the P-17??

Mike

I have a M1917 American Enfield.

The last time I shouldered the weapon to peer through the sights I noticed that the way my trigger arm is holding the rifle when finger is on trigger that it's very un comfortable. My arm is kind of crooked forward and out causing my forearm muscle to flex and bulge out. This gives a great grip for steady aim however I'd hate to have to make a living with this rifle or in other words fight with it as this would fatigue my arm and wrist something awful and in short order, we're talking 20 rds or less. There seems to be no other way to hold the weapon to alleviate the pain.

I have shouldered it a few times since to see if it was a fluke but no it just seems this rifle and my arm don't get along.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed this type of thing? Other then the stock's design and stress it causes my arm the M1917 is a really impressive weapon.

What was the original idea for design of the American Enfield M1917 or as sometimes called the P17? Was this arm ever issued to British troops? What is the difference between this arm and what is known as the P14 rifle?

Mike

And luck of luck (maybe a curse too) I've found a Hungarian marked bayonet made for the Hungarian Mannlicher I picked up. Wrote seller about price and asked for photos. I bet it's more then I'll want to pay.

Mike

Thanks. I see them all over I just did not like the needle so I got the blade type. Darn.

Mike

Thanks for solving the mystery! Seller will take it back as he offers a seven day inspection period. I told him I'd list it for sale and I have on another forum. It's a nice bayonet and it might sell saving me and the seller the hassel of a return. I always try to sell off un wanted items before I bother a seller.

Do you happen to know what the bayonet is called I am seeking? What year was it introduced? Is it a blade bayonet or a needle type?

Mike

I bought a French bayonet and when I got it in the mail it would not attach to the berthier rifle I have. Before I bought it I consulted a bayonet collecting forum and seek advice. Everything checked out but I was not able to find a photo of the bayo on a berthier so I went in a bit blind...

Here is the bayonet as it was on Ebay,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

And here is the thread I posted on showing photos of the bayo, rifle and my confusion,

http://www.militariacollecting.com/index.php?showtopic=29477

I only have a 7 day inspection period so need to know for sure if it's me or the bayonet that is the problem.

Mike

I picked this up off an auction site. All original except the caliber was up dated post WWI. I figure that's ok. I could have taken a all original 8x50 cal with LW reg 27 marked butt plate for 750.00 but that's kinda high for a rifle you'd never fire.

Opinions on condition vs. price paid? Rarity Etc.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayi...5-Matching!!

Hun Helmet,

This is probably a swedish 1896 mauser, many were made by Mauser Oberndorf. Thats is an OK price but not great even if it is in nice shape.

I will take another look at it. I can tell you it's marked Gew98 and Oberndorf might have been on the receiver but I don't know for sure. The rifle was definatly German army issue at some point in time. Did the Sweeds make rifles for the Germans?

Mike

I found a 1923 Mauser Rifle in a shop in town here in Idaho in original issue condition, no sporterization. Looks like the GEW 98 but up dated site. Has the Cleaning rod. Looked nice. Lots of blue. Had a brass color disk in the butt, pretty shinny. Have no idea how rare a find it is but it's only 249.00 for the gun.

Is this a steal? Could it be resold for more? Also what do I look for or avoid in a mauser of this year? I am not too interested in it but I could pick it up for a trade.

Mike

Sounds like you got a nice one Hun Helmet, one that has that 'been there done that look' from the sound of it. I wouldnt worry about the timber, it may have had a tough life and as you say, been oiled a bit too much, but thats not a bad thing, better than been dry and cracked .

Any chance of a pic or two? I always like to see an ol' Smelly

CroppyBoy1798

Sure but I can't post them. My files are too large and on a Mac I have no way to resize them or the time. mail me at WWisoldatGew98@aol.com and I will link you to my free site with pop ups or send an attachment. Your call.

mike

I found this Berthier last week and bid on it and won. Paid less then

another I was considering and all the numbers match so I thought it was

the way to go. I am totally happy with the rifle as I got it Friday

however un disclosed in the auction is the fact it's got some pretty

heavy pitting under the wood. And the Finish is over the pitting as it

it was re done in an arsenal after the pitting had done it's damage.

Should this be considered a big deal? And or what does it knock off

on the price? In that did I pay too much considering the pitting?

Here it the auction link, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44003675

mike

What else is a near 100 year old rifle for other then decoration?

In the U.S. you need a lisense or permit for some classes of guns. There seems to be no reason to regulate antiques to the same degree.

But is that feature enough to qualify it as "the best" ? Sounds neat, but there are many other things that may be more important to a soldier in the field.

Some consider the AK the best. If it's the best then this newer Russian Rifle is even better. This debate was pigeon holed from the get go and short sighted. Is there really a "best" anything? It's like asking who the best guitar player is, impossible to say because it's a question of taste. Some of the most technical players in the world might lack the "feeling" of lesser and even un known guitar players. Same with Assault Weapons in some regards.

The M4 does not rate in my book. The Caliber is lacking. My personal preference would be a standard G-3.

Mike

Hands down it is a new Russian designed rifle that I am sorry to say I forget what it's called. It is not an AK47 or a variant but looks a bit line one. Production started early 90's and it sports a variable automatic feed rate and starts off at one speed and I think decreases. The hit probability factor is increased this way.

Sorry all I got on it at the moment.

Mike