Christian Zulus

There are minute engraving differences in the wreath under the central star between 2nd and 3rd classes; the back plate was struck with a different die that was not used to strike 3rd classes.

One of the very first identification spot is the top ray seen from the back. On genuine 2nd class (but also on early 3rd classes), that element has parallel edges, (see # 2213), but on fakes made using later 3rd classes (the most widely available), that element is drop-shaped (see # 1604).

Now, I cannot answer as to why the mint used different dies, but the fact is that they did.

Dear Marc,

yes, there is a difference in the form of the wreath under the central star - 2213 is more "slim".

But the s/n. of 1604 is engraved by a rotating tool instrument . (Maybe my scans are too bad ... ). There are also no signs or traces at the rv. of 1604 of the usual manipulations.

1604's top ray is drop-shaped, but my two Motherlands 3cl - s/n. 24327 & 128584 - have (like Motherland 2cl 2213) parallel edges.

Maybe the mint used elements from different dies to manufacture the Motherland 2cl ?

First the mint struck the elements of a Motherland and later on the handcrafters got the elements from the stock for finishing a 2cl or 1cl ?

Did Igor Pak list anywhere in the internet his crucial points of identifying authentic Motherland 2cl ?

Did Igor present some scans somewhere in the www ?

Best regards

Christian

Nice pictures, but they do not allow to make an exact diagnosis of the patients, as details are at an almost microscopic level.

Anyway, from the outside, global look of it, your 2213 looks OK (but need to verify some other details); your 1604 displays several signs typical of an upgraded 3rd class (shape of the top ray, lack of line under SN, handwriting of the SN, etc). This would also explain the difference in gold plating

Dear Marc,

many thanks for your expertise .

I had never any doubts about Motherland 2cl s/n. 2213 - it's a real beauty and I paid in spring 1994 the hughe sum of EUR 630,- for that item. I was fascinated by the design and the quality and so I paid that (idiotic ) amount of money for that order. As already mentioned, the very early 1990s had been a period without faked Motherlands 2cl, due to the fact, that there had been hundreds of them in the stocks of the higher military commands (+ unissued order booklets) waiting for being sold to the West .

I had some times doubts about the authenticy of Motherland 2cl s/n. 1604, which I bought years later for the more moderate price of EUR 180,-.

But I compared my 1604 to other - authentic - Motherlands 2cl, like the very early ones of Maksim on Andrew/Igor's website s/n. 871 or Andreas' s/n. 718, and found no severe differences at the av., but the rv. (no fine line under s/n., but something like a small "beam") is different. What convinced me partly, was the quality of the gold plating, which was ident in colour and that pale & dull impression.

What are the details on microscopic level, we have to look at ?

Why used the mint different dies for the 3 different classes of Motherland - it was only the gold plating, which made the difference ?

Best regards

Christian

I'm still at sea, but had to reply (takes over 10 minutes to bring up this window!)

Yes, I will admit that I passed on this group back in 2001 because at the time, $750 (what Igor was charging for it) WAS too darn much. I was buying groups similar (documented Homeland 3rds plus Red Stars) in the $150-$250 range (no kidding). In 2003 I sold several Homeland 3/Red Star groups with serial numbers that we know now to be Afghanistan-issue time frame for $300-$400 a pop...and I thought I was making a significant profit on them!

My have times changed!!!

Dave

Dear Dave,

welcome back on board of GMIC .

By publishing your outstanding book "No Deed Forgotten", you made the most significant and most scientific contribution to the memory of the heroic deeds of Red Army soldiers in the West .

We all missed your expertise here at GMIC very much .

Best regards

Christian

I don't see anything wrong with it. Nice order in nice shape, congratulations

Dear Marc,

many thanks .

Best regards

Christian

There IS a (small) line under s/n. 2213.

Better scans of my two Motherlands 2cl

It is possible to differentiate between 2nd and 3rd class, but it is a very tedious and tough process. Igor Pack did an excellent survey of confirmed 2nd classes, from which he came up with some very detailed fine points. To make things short, 2nd and 3rd classes were struck with different dies, ans it is possible to identify which is which. Gold plating is NOT a reliable indicator of class, as its state of preservation may vary greatly depending on many external and chemical factors.

From the look of Andreas' order #718, some of the key watermarks of a 2nd class are indeed present. Now, to tell for sure beyond that would require very hi-res scans of some specific areas.

Dear Marc,

many thanks for your information .

Igor & Andrew might be the most experienced experts in the field of Soviet awards.

I made some scans of my two Motherlands 2cl av. & rv. and with different light and backgrounds.

The mint might have used also differnt dies - not only differnt gold plating - for the two (might be ) series of 2cl: Have a look at the tips on the bundle of rays or at the ring with the inscription.

Best regards

Christian

Better scans of my RBL type 2

Dear Marc,

I tried to shoot better pics ...

As I told you, in spring 1994 I had several screwbacks to choose and I took the most beautiful one .

Best regards

Christian

PMD stopped authenticating Homelands 2nd class long before he closed his business. By the way, Alexei "continued the business from Paul" authenticating soviet orders, medals and badges.

In my honest oppinion, to fake a second class is very very easy. You take a 3rd class with low genuine serial number and plate the order with gold. Thats all. Now you have a "genuine" 2nd class. You have to change no serial number. The only thing is, that the stock of low serial number 3rd class is limited.

Dear Andreas,

... and Alexei posted in the "other" Soviet forum, that he regards your Motherland 2cl s/n. 718 to be authentic .

So I guess, that there are some possibilities to check the originality of a Motherland 2cl - otherwise the collector wouldn't have paid about USD 2.500,- for that order at the Helsinki-auction last year.

As you already pointed out, Motherlands 3cl up to s/n. 3300 are extremly rare. I would say, that the market value of such a low numbered, early and in most cases awarded & researchable Motherland 3cl might equal the price of an unawarded Motherland 2cl. So it wouldn't make any economic sense to mutilate such a rare Motherland 3cl and invest a decent gold plating, if there isn't a surplus in business .

My theory is, that the kind of gold plating might indicate, if the item is autentic or a fake .

There might have been 2 series in manufacturing the Motherland 2cl and attaching the gold plating:

- a first series (maybe up to s/n. 2000 ?) with that rather pale goldplating + longer screw, as we can see with your item or on Andrew's website

- a second series (maybe from s/n. 2001 up to s/n. 3300 ?) with the more bright gold plating + shorter screw.

If you compare a genuine Motherland 2cl with on of the two kinds of gold plating to a (rather well made!) copy of the former Russian company CAPRAL you will see the difference immedeatly: CAPRAL's gold plating is much more going to a red colour tone, than a late Motherland 2cl.

I guess, that it is hardly possible to attach a 100 % matching gold plating to an "improved" Motherland 3cl. Specially not to fake an early Motherland 2cl with that pale & dull gold plating and with these stains of patina on the gold plating.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of Andrew and Alexei about the possibilities of authentication in the case of Motherland 2cl .

Best regards

Christian

Jim.Z posted all research for the Major Litemin.

please have look.

Dear Kristof,

sorry .... my mistake .

I should have posted: "Do we have any more TRANSLATED details of Major Litemin's career?"

My knowledge of the Russian language is extremly poor, specially concerning handwriting.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: You are lucky to have still the Order of Lenin in your group . In my rather similar mini-group of Major Baranovsky http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24254 the Lenin (+ Red Star and medals) are missing .

Dear Kristof,

I had been exactly right, with my guessing of the award dates :

Due to the s/n. of the RB#2 in the 25.XXX range (awarded in the year 1954), it seems to be a long service group:

- RB: 20 years of service - 1944

- Lenin: 25 years of service - 1949

- RB#2: 30 years of service - 1954

Do we have any more details of Major Litmin's career ?

Best regards

Christian

Skirt on the battlefield is to say the least, highly impractical.... and highly unsafe!

Dear Jim,

no doubt about that fact .

But on the other hand, the Scottish Highlanders (and I guess a few other nations) wore skirts in the battles of WW II .

Royal Regiment of Scotland (SCOTS):

I think, that female soldiers in the Red Army of the GPW had skirts only during the hot summer season and in functions as medics, doctors, communications etc. I never saw a female sniper, tank driver or pilot with a skirt .

In the Austrian Armed Forces female soldiers are rarely wearing skirts - on duty in the field they are wearing trousers:

Best regards

Christian

With PMD no longer authenticating the 2nd and 1st classes I'd thread with caution.

Dear Jim,

PMD stopped his authenticating services at all .

Maybe there had been no further demand of the (experienced) Russian collectors for PMD-certificates, who now dominate the market for almost 100 %. So, these certificates didn't add some extra value to the item in the view of the Russians.

The fact is, that there hadn't been any faked Motherland 2cl on the market during the period of the early 1990s to the mid 1990s - as PMD notes in the "Red Bible". The reason: There had been enough items from the stocks of higher military commands and the mint, which entered the market after the end of the CCCP.

I am lucky: Mine are from that "unfaked" era .

But it is not sooo difficult to check a Motherland 2cl:

- s/n. - any manipulations, traces of sandblasting etc.

- gold plating

- way of fixing the parts of the order

- strucked quality of the single parts - sharp edges of the enameld ring with the letters

- quality of the enamel

- weight

- patina

If you already have some orginal & authentic items in your collection, the judgement is even easier .

Best regards

Christian

the second class Nr. 718 has a longer screw.

Dear Andreas,

many thanks for the confirmation .

Best regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

at another thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...ost&p=98633 Alan shows a very, very early (2-digit-s/n.!) Motherland 2cl with a PMD-certificate:

Also with a rather pale & dull gold plating ...

Best regards

Christian

I also recognized, that later Motherlands (2cl & 3cl) have shorter - more comfortable - screws, than earlier ones.

I measured the lenght of the screw of two Homelands. s/n: 18.xxx and 70.xxx

The 70.xxx has a two (2) mm shorter screw than the 18.xxx.

In my oppinion that is a normal production variant, as other awards have.

Dear Andreas,

what's the length of the screw of your Motherland 2cl s/n. 718 ?

According to my theory, it should be the longer version ?

In my small & humble collection of Soviet awards I have 4 Motherlands with 2 different length of screws - as you noticed it:

Motherland 3cl 24327 (a real awarded one ) and Motherland 2cl 1604 have longer screws.

Motherland 3cl 128584 and Motherland 2cl 2213 (a pair fresh from the headquarter's stock) have shorter screws.

Andreas, what do you think of the difference in gold plating concerning earlier & later Motherland 2cl ?

Do you have such a later (higher numbered & unissued) Motherland 2cl in your collection ?

My Motherland 2cl 1604 looks almost ident to your Motherland 2cl 718 - like twins .

Nice job summing up things

Dear Marc,

at least I contributed some useful work to question #177 .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I already included Riga at the failures-section .

Dear Marc,

nearly all important towns in the northern part of the former USSR have rivers running through ...

Due to the fact, that I am too uneducated to answer your question, I will collect all your hints and our failures. Maybe this will help the prospective winner of question #177 .

Your question:

This time, we are looking for a place.

It is refered to as the "Soviet Verdun" in the former USSR. There took place one of the bloodiest battle of WW2; more than 300,000 Soviet troops were killed there, to which should be added the German deads (I don't have any figures about them, but I've been told it was awfully high too).

1. What is the Russian name of the place?

2. Where is it located? What front was it part of?

3. What was the maximum size (approximate) of the battlefield?

4. How long did the battle last (beginning/ending dates)?

5. What was the first unit engaged in the opening battle?

6. What is there today?

Your hints:

1. The place (town/village) is located somewhere in the northern part of the Eastern Front of the GPW.

2. The place (town/village) was not fortified or was a fortress.

3. The place was 100 % destroyed during GPW and never rebuilt. The place - as it was before GPW - dosen't exist anymore.

4. The place has a river running through.

5. The place "has been most certainly the utmost "meat-grinder" of the whole eastern front in term of casualties per square km (or m, or cm), and from the incredible amount of iron/lead/steel/whatever other metal that has been thrown there."

6. It might be located within the Volkhov Front .

7. It should be located (rather far) west from Tikhvin.

8. It should be located north of Staraya Russa.

9. There might be now a monument at the location of the former town/village .

Our failures:

It is not:

- Leningrad

- Stalingrad

- Sevastopol

- Rzhev

- Smolensk

- Kursk

- Oranienbaum

- Peterhof

- Staraya Russa

- Tikhvin

- Riga

Maybe my summing up helps ...

Best regards

Christian

You are getting closer with Tikhvin, but still quite far from the place we are looking for...

Dear Marc,

so - like in playing tennis - I have to give a w.o. .

My abilities of using GOOGLE in Russian cyrillic language are very, very limited .

Best regards

Christian

please could you explain your point of view?

Dear Sebastien,

I guess, that this - rather strange looking - fashion designer has a better hand (maybe much more experience) with female designs, than with male designs.

The uniforms & coats for the female section have indeed a rather cute design: classic & stylish .

But I actually prefer female soldiers in Red Army uniforms of 1944/45 (with skirt!) - snipers, field medics etc.

Best regards

Christian

Just a thought: Could these be variations in preservation? Sometimes the gilding is so thin that it tarnished, evaporates, or is simply absorbed into the substrate? It is so easy to concoct separate sub-sub-sub-variants simply on the individual (unique) appearance of each piece based on wear, mood (alcohol-intake?) of the maker, preservation, conditions of storage? Always a skeptic.

Dear Ed,

these are some good points .

I guess, that the substance of the material the makers used for the gold plating of the Motherlands 2cl was different - as they used longer screws initially for all Motherlands.

My theory is, that the mint - or some high ranking person in military or politics - wasn't happy with the gold plating and the long screw. So, with a new series in production of Motherlands the composition of the substance for the gold plating was improved and the screw shortened.

The mint also improved the fixing of the hammer & sickle at the Order of the October Revolution in the 1970s.

If you look at Paul McDaniel's and Andrew Kuznetsov's example (or the scanned item above) of a Motherland 2cl, you will see the difference.

The early Motherland 2cl shown in the scan above belongs to Andreas "Alfred" http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showuser=235 . Here two more views of his beauty from his website:

Best regards

Christian

Dear Kristof,

that's a beautiful group with well preserved orders and medals - congratulations .

Due to the s/n. of the RB#2 in the 25.XXX range (awarded in the year 1954), it seems to be a long service group:

- RB: 20 years of service - 1944

- Lenin: 25 years of service - 1949

- RB#2: 30 years of service - 1954

What about the documents of research our experts and/or native speakers should translate ?

Is it possible for you, to post a better scan of the entries in the orders booklet ?

Best regards

Christian

(And, everything else aside, the uniforms are still, for my money, nasty and silly and disrespectful of the post-Tsarist history.)

Dear Ed,

you are right: The uniforms are a disgrace to Soviet history and Putin didn't really look amused .

At least the uniforms for the female soldiers (except the strange caps & hats ) are not as worse, as the silly dresses for the male soldiers.

Best regards

Christian

Tikhvin 1941

That's not it, you went too far away.

Dear Marc,

Demyansk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket is even more far away ...

My last try:

The battle of Tikhvin in 1941.

The German Heeresgruppe Nord initially succeeded in occupying Tikhvin on November 8. However the newly-appointed commander of the Soviet 4th Army, Kirill Meretskov, bogged down the Germans by applying active defense and constant counterattacks. He then went on the offensive and on December 10 recaptured Tikhvin.

In the midst of the battle Stavka ordered Meretskov to organize a new Volkhov Front. By December 30 Meretzkov had forced von Leeb's troops back to positions from which they began their Tikhvin offense. According to one of the leading historians of the Eastern Front, David Glantz: "the concept of blitzkrieg failed for the first time in the Second World War... anticipating [the Soviet victory at Moscow]".

But Tikhvin has been rebuilt after the GPW ...

O.K., if my guessing is wrong again, I will give w.o.

Best regards

Christian

Could you please post hi-res scans of both front and back of each order.

Dear Marc,

a late Motherland 2cl - more bright & shiny - with s/n. 2684 you can find on page 173 in Paul McDaniels "Red Bible" - av. & rv.

An earlier Motherland 2cl - more pale & dull - with s/n. 871 you can find at Andrew's website.

I also recognized, that later Motherlands (2cl & 3cl) have shorter - more comfortable - screws, than earlier ones.

Sorry, I can't deliver better scans of my own Motherlands, because I don't have a camera .

It's the question, if there is a noticeable variation, due to the gold plating, or not ?

Best regards

Christian