Christian Zulus

On 14/10/2021 at 01:42, slava1stclass said:

 

 

Gents,

 

  In a span of just over three years, this thread has been viewed an additional 50,000 times now hitting the 100,000 unique views mark - the first thread in GMIC's Russia forum to do so.  By far, it remains the Russia forum's most popular non-pinned active thread.

 

  Thank you for your continued interest.

 

Regards,

 

slava1stclass 

Dear Bruce, many thanks for your unique and first rate expertise in your thread and specially in your comprehensive book. Concerning ORDEN SLAVA you are the no. 1 expert in the world!

Kind regards from Vienna, Austria

Christian

Great news - I just ordered 2 copies :-)

Gentlemen,

this fine cavalier's set above seems to have at least a "normal" asking price :-)

Any more details or citations?

Kind regards

Christian

8 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I agree, and on top of that the citation was pretty good. The vagaries of the market...

Well, the prices of Soviet medals will go up and down, as the history since 1992 showed, but rather high-end items with documentation will always have a sort of eternal value. The decline of US-propaganda in the world and the re-writing of the history of World War II might increase - in the long rund - the interest in documented Soviet awards, I guess.

On ‎02‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 02:14, USSR said:

Yup, I was a bit disappointed myself to be honest. Not a bad price but in this condition to a full cavalier... I wish the buyer didn't pay me. I wouldn't have sold it if I knew the price would be this low. Especially since I have sold Glory 2nd's in worse condition with a less interesting story to non-full-cavaliers for over $700

Well, dear USSR, I guess, the hammer price of your OGII was at least 50% under the estimate :-(

The upper middle class in the former Soviet Union isn't that well off, as some years ago and the classical middle class in the western world, which invested in fine arts & collectibles, almost vanished :-(

Kind regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

I guess, that's the lowest price, ever paid for an OGII to a Full Cavalier :-(

Kind regards

Christian

Fantastic group, dear Paul! 2 Lenins + HSL is rather rare for a shepard, in my experience.

Gentlemen,

a fair price for an OGI in a rather good condition!

What's the story behind the OGI s/n. 848?

Kind regards

Christian

5 hours ago, slava1stclass said:

 

 

Gents,

  USSR's OGI serial number "967" sold for $5,000.00 on the well-known auction site. 

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dear slava1stclass,

many thanks for the information and congratulation to Matt (USSR)!

Kind regards

Christian

1 hour ago, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Serial number "967" is now available for sale on the well-known auction site.  Opening bid was .99 U.S. cents.  Current bid stands at $20.50.

  Christian's and my own comments used earlier in this thread are cited in the order's description:

"The first theory is that the initial order was stolen from or lost by Dmitry Feodorovich Gantsev, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. The stamping machine might have been out of order so the mint could notstamp the number and the cyrillic "D" for "duplicat".

The second theory is that the order is a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits.  That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added."

  Good luck to USSR! 

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gentlemen,

"the first theory", mine, is totally wrong! I made a mistake :-( I simply oversaw, that Gantsev already passed away in 1968 and not in the 1990s, during the inferno of the Yeltsin-era. Of course, in the 1960s Gantsev would have got a duplicate OGI with stamped s/n. and with an "d" on it!

"The second theory" by Slava1stclass is the correct one :-)

I guess, Matt's OGI will get a highest bid somewhere in the range between USD 5,000.- and USD 7,000.-.

The order is in an outright 10/10 condition, represents the very last version and there are no doubts about authenticy. On the other side, this OGI has no history, due to fact, that this order came directly - stolen or illegally sold - from the mint and the s/n. was afterwards faked, to hide the legal ownership of the Moscow mint. So, it seems quite difficult, to sell it to a Russian collector.

Kind regards

Christian

5 hours ago, USSR said:

No need to say to say sorry;-) I'm well aware that the value is affected by the serial number alteration ;-) 

Dear Matt,

at least you have an OGI in a most outstanding 10/10 condition in your collection :-) Quite a large number of OGIs have been polished to dead by their proud owners ;-)

In 1996 I bought an authentic Kutuzov 2nd class for about USD 600,-. Also for the Yeltsin-era a bargain. By research in the military archives and by experts opinion I came to the result, that the s/n. had been altered :-( I had the luck, to find a Russian buyer at an auction in Vienna in 2009, who payed USD 6.000,- for this order :-)

In January 1994 I purchased my Full Cavalier Gnitienko-set of 1st category for about USD 1.500,- from Ukraine. Sgt. Gnitienko passed away in Charkov and his heirs sold the set.

So I guess, your OGI is - despite the s/n. alteration - an excellent investment for you :-) And these OGIs with this late and special rv. are quite rare!

Kind regards

Christian

Dear USSR,

no doubt, your OGI is 100% authentic - your first photograph was wrong :-)

It's a very late version with that pebbled rv.

A more or less logic solution for the new engraved s/n. and the absolute 10/10 condition might be, that Gantsev's OGI had been stolen, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. Maybe the stamping machine was out of order or engraving was just easier. So the mint could also not STAMP this cyrillic "d" on the reverse for "duplicat".

Have you checked Gantsev's personel files in the military archives, if there is something like that recorded?

Kind regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

an interesting Full Cavalier, who is recorded in Slava1stclass' fantastic book "Onward to Berlin!":

"Mama Nina" - Nina Pavlovna Petrova. One of the 4 women, one of the 34 snipers (she had 122 credited kills!) and with 53 years of age, when her heroic deeds took place and becoming a Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory, one of the oldest ever :-)

Kind regards

Christian

15 hours ago, USSR said:

No, it's authentic and comes with a COA. Probably some distortion as a result of the bright the lighting.

Dear USSR,

the Spassky-Tower and the Red Star on top are too narrow. Can you forward the photograph of your OGI on the COA?

If your OGI is authentic, then it looks like fresh from the stocks of the mint. Did you invest some few bucks into research?

Kind regards

Christian

A copy, USSR? The Spassky-Tower and the Red Star are looking different ...

Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your expertise! You are welcome, but an original Apfelstrudel is never served with Vanillesauce, but with Schlag, with whipped white cream ;-) The Milchrahmstrudel is served with Vanillesauce! But an original Milchrahmstrudel, an speciality of the Wienerwald region, is served only in very few restaurants. You have to wait for about 25 minutes, due to the fact, that the Milchrahmstrudel is baked in the ofen: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milchrahmstrudel

Concerning the OGI presented above. The price is fair, no doubt! There is no wartime photograph of the recipient offered! But "excellent condition, absolutely superb" is a bit too much ;-) It is not 10/10! Just compare the condition to Gnitienko's OGI.

Kind regards

Christian

Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your reply!

Is there a 3rd variant of the Special Award Booklets for Full Cavaliers in the time from 1992 on by the Russian Federation?

Was there a special chapter of the Order of Glory by RF-government from 1992 on, due to the fact, that the Supreme Soviet vanished?

As I can make out in your statistics in the book, the confering of OGI stopped recently. Is that fact also true for OGII & OGIII?

Kind regards

Christian

Dear Slava1stclass,

Many thanks for your prompt answer! So it seems, that these OGIIIs had been confered only for somehow "patriotic" wars, as Hungary 1956 or Amur in the late 1960s and not for Korea, Vietnam, CSSR or Afghanistan.

Another question: Have you any numbers, how many survivors of Full Cavaliers got these special booklet, issued in 1976 or later in the 1980s, which should be part of a category 1 set? Somewhere I read, that this number is about 700 Full Cavaliers?

Kind regards

Christian

Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your prompt and clear answer!

You write in your book, that besides Great Patriotic War and Manchurian Operation, a number of OG3s had been confered for Hungary 1956 and River Amur 1960s. It seems, that the OG was only for "official" wars awarded - not for Korea, Vietnam or Egypt? I guess, for CSSR 1968, there had been to less real fighting for confering OG3s?

Kind regards

Christian

12 hours ago, slava1stclass said:

Christian,

  Thank you sincerely for your kind words.  I hope you enjoy the book.  As you will note when you read further chapters, there are many very interesting and little-known facts and statistics associated with the 2,656 Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory.  They are now brought to light for the very first time.  The 200 Order of Glory First Class award recommendations included in the book are clearly among the very best of the 1,800 to 1,900 I reviewed during its drafting.   

  At the moment, I plan to use the eBook format although I may consider a bound version (possibly paperback) in the future. 

  Have a nice weekend.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dear Slava1stclass,

you write in the 2nd chapter of your book, that CIC of the "Manchurian Operation", Marshal Vasilevskiy, confered OG1s to 9 soldiers WITHOUT a decree by the Supreme Soviet. You mentioned, that he might have been entitled to do so. I am sure, he was. Vasilevsky was Stalin's most senior marshal and military leader! I guess, that Vasilevsky agreed with the Politburo, that the propaganda effect is better, to award the soldiers on the battle field, than to wait for the long procedure by Supreme Soviet. You write, that these 9 new Full Cavaliers never received their decree by the Supreme Soviet afterwards. What was their legal status? Had they been some kind of "illegal" Full Cavaliers? At least you did not include them to the 2,656. So we have only 4 new Full Cavaliers linked to the "Manchurian Operation" and not 13. Seen from an ethical viewpoint, they 9 should be included.

Kind regards

Christian

2 hours ago, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Many years in the making, the work is now done: 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N38DNYR/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1485546711&sr=1-1&keywords=Onward+to+Berlin%21

 

Regards,

 

slava1stclass

Dear slava 1stclass,

congratulations to your outstanding publication in the field of WWII Eastern Front & phaleristics. I just bought the Kindle-version on Amazon. Will you publish also a printed and bound version?

I have never seen such a precise and scientific work about Soviet phaleristics - wow :-) Your presented statistics make an end to all speculations - I didn't imagine, that so many mistakes happened and that so many 1st classes had been confered so long after WWII!

Many thanks again for your outstanding and unique scientific work!

Kind regards

Christian

25 minutes ago, USSR said:

I forgot to watch the Suvorov 1 but the Abkhazia ORBL sold for 220,000+20%=$264,000 

Wow, that's big money !!!

31 minutes ago, USSR said:

Could be. But my point was that Paul's remark about Markov would have a hard time sellling his items for the est. price was exaggerated to say the least. Also, there was some doubt here by others whether this set would even reach the starting price. 

Btw, I placed a bid on the Kutuzov 3 set but just missed it. A real bargain IMHO.

Well, it might be, that Russian collectors are spending more money at the moment. At least, here in Vienna, we faced a significant increase in Russian winter tourists ;-)

As I remember, some years ago, a category 1 set of a sniper sold for about USD 50.000,- at an auction in NYC.

Do you have informations, how the ultimate gems sold at Markov's auction, as the Suvorov 1 and other much publicated items?

10 hours ago, USSR said:

So much for your unmitigated disasters... 

Gentlemen,

taking a usual buyer's premium of 20% into account, a final price of USD 16,200 is still rather moderate for an almost category 1 set - my humble opinion.

Kind regards

Christian

Dear Slava1stclass,

1) Correct for usual mortar crews, but the Markov-set deals with a commander of a heavy 120mm mortar crew, with a minmum range of 460m! Usually such heavy mortars are located just behind the FEBA.

2) Also correct, but a HSU was a more common a posthumous award, than an OGI. Up to now, it was not possible, to bestow outstanding sniper Roza Shanina (picture) with a well deserved OGI posthumously :-( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Shanina

3) "Berlin Operation" included the fronts of Konev & Zhukov and ranges from Küstrin, Seelower Höhen, Kessel von Halbe to Potsdam. Also the quoted 10% might be more, than OGI for Crimea or "Operation Bagration".

4) Many thanks for your congratulations :-)

5) Correct :-)

Kind regards

Christian