jf42

When the Gordon Highlanders and Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders were set to amalgamate in 1994, both regiments identified the items of uniform most important to their traditions. The Gordons declared their Glengarry with its band of dicing (the Camerons wore a plain blue Glengarry) so that was retained, with the blue feather of the Camerons.

The khaki ToS,  while in form a more traditional item of Scottish headgear, was only working dress, while the 'diced' blue Glengarry was firmly in the tradition of Scottish military uniform.

92nd (Gordon)  Highlanders, Edinburgh Castle, circa 1845

On 04/11/2018 at 20:49, SillyOldGrandad said:

The Queen's Regiment 1966-1992.

Indeed. The helmet plate badge shows the Prince of Wales' badge of the Middlesex Regiment (Duke of Cambridge [57th & 77th] awarded to the 77th in 1810 and the Dragon badge of The Queen's Own Buffs (Royal West Kents)  [3rd, 50th & 97th], recognised as the "Ancient badge' of the 3rd Regiment (The Buffs) in 1747.

Both regiments, together with the Queen's Royal Surrey Regiments and  Royal Sussex Regiments were subsumed into the Queen's Regiment in 1966.

 The  previous post has been deleted. I was talking nonsense

 DELETED

As Peter suggests, British & Commonwealth Badge Forum will soon sort you out. There are a lots of knowledgable folk some with particular interest in the Rifle regiments

wf-  Hello  again.

I suggested driver because he appears  dressed for mounted service and those who rode the draught horses  for whatever horse drawn vehicle were, as far as I know, termed 'drivers' at this date.]

Badges of rank. Chevrons indicating rank would be larger and on the upper arm. For other ranks, all marks of service were on the forearm but that is an area in which I am otherwise almost wholly ignorant, although I believe  a star is for five years service as a Volunteer.

'1 Sussex RE' , strongly suggests 1st Bn Sussex Regt, but for the fact  that it was a Regular Battalion , the regimental title was 'Royal Sussex' and that the battalion had been abroad since 1896 and did not return till after the Great War.

Perhaps there was a territorial Royal Engineers company affiliated to the county of Sussex, but that takes me far out of my comfort zone.

If you would like to invite comments of those who know a great deal  more about the Volunteers and Territorials of that time, try http://www.victorianwars.com/index.php  where there are some very knowledgable and helpful folk. Failing that,  there is also a Facebook page, if you want to go doen that route,  with many connoisseurs of  the uniforms of the period between the Boer War and the outbreak of war in 1914: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1885482761668080/?multi_permalinks=2138065349743152&notif_id=1530699564521045&notif_t=group_highlights
 

The second man falls out of the scope of both those communities. The Grenadier Guards and the Royal Fusiliers were indeed around in 1940. For the reasons I stated, I think the  Royal Fusiliers may be the better bet (assuming I am right in the first place, about the grenade badge)

Good luck!

'Divl. Signal Co. RE' means that your first man was in a Divisional signalling company  of the Royal Engineers. This was  before  the separate Royal Corps of Signals was formed in 1920 . The evidence of mounted service suggests he was either a driver of the company transport or perhaps  involved in the more specialist role of line laying and checking. Less likely as that required fitness and agility and he doesn't look in the first flush of youth. I may be doing him an injustice but  the stripes on his arm, (not my comfort zone) seem to  indicate a certain length of service. The star records efficient service  in the Volunteer Corps, after 1908 the Territorial Army

Your second man seems to have a grenade emblem on his Field Service cap. If so, that suggests either the Grenadier Guards, or a fusilier regiment. I  am not sure but I believe the Guards wore a khaki Service Dress cap (i.e.1914 style) rather than the khaki 'Cap F.S', when not in the field.  If I am seeing right, the  emblem  does closely resemble the grenade badge of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). So that might be a possibilty.

Eco!

Could he be Italian?  There's a certain effortless elegance about him- although the cap might not be quite right. It looks like he's a cavalryman.

As I said previously, the Cameronians no longer  have a dedicated regimental museum operated in the way as, say,  the Black Watch Museum is run. It is part of a wider municipal body, with limited display space, and with storage space that is not infinite either.  The museum will have very limited footfall being somewhat off the beaten track The permanant staff will probably also have duties eleswhere.

It is undoubtedly of niche interest and its battered state means it is less likely to be displayed. Perhaps the best you can do is record and describe the item clearly and  send the museum a file for their archives. You might also let them know where it has gone to, if that is appropriate.
 

Tell us about the bearskin plumes again,  Dad!

The Cameronians Musuem is not a dedicated  regimental institution  but  part of a municipal set up  organised in Lanarkshire under the umbrella of 'Leisure and culture.' How many of those dealing with its archives and exhibits have personal connection with, or specialist knowledge of the regiment, I couldn't say for sure but it is not likely to be many.  A handful of volunteer enthusiasts at best, given that the regiment disbanded  fifty years ago. A subject as niche as the identification of the bugler's cap may very well tax their resources.

As you can see,  you will have to look elsewhere for information on your man Jacobs.

As a general enquiry, you may have some luck from the National War Museum at Edinburgh Castle. They are very helpful there, even though they won't have specialist knowledge of the Cameronians or be able to help you trace an individual.

Also, bear in mind that it is August and everything will move slowly until after the holidays. Especially in Edinburgh. It's festival time!

Good luck.

Grey C, try posting your photo  here.

http://www.victorianwars.com/index.php

There you'll find a group with a concentrated body of knowledge and expertise relating to this period, including the authors of the uniformology site, who like nothing more than to investigate conundrums such as yours.

PS. I have been told by a member of the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum that  in 'The History of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)' by John Baynes, there is a photograph of a Bugle Major wearing a  Rifles cap/ 'busby'. We don't as yet know which battalion or have a date for that.

I am intrigued.

On 19/07/2017 at 00:18, Farkas said:

 

 

  Shall I put these together....?
 

 

Greetings. Your badge relates to the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, an entirely different regiment, so, ah, best not.

In relation to the  battered busby, I stand to be corrected but  I have never seen reference to a Rifles 'busby' worn by the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).

When the regiment was formed from the union of  the 26th Cameronians Regt and the 90th (Perthshire) Light Infantry in 1881, all Rifle regiments were ordered to wear a cloth covered Home Service Helmet in Full Dress. Circa 1890, after much lobbying, "the hideous black helmet" was done away with.   The 2nd pattern  Rifle  'busby' was introduced  for the Rifle Brigade, KRRC and Irish Rifle regiments.   A little later,  the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) adopted  a Rifle green shako instead (based on the 'last model'  shako worn by Line infantry up until 1878.)  As I say, I stand to be corrected, but I have only ever seen pictures of  their buglers wearing  either the Full Dress shako unique to the regiment or the glengarry undress bonnet/ forage cap.

One possibility to be considered relates to the fact that the marriage of the 26th and the 90th in 1881 was something of a 'shotgun' affair,  with the 1st Bn (26th) and the 2nd Bn (90th) doggedly and defiantly  maintaining  their separate identities well into the C20, referring to themselves respectively as The Cameronians and the Scottish Rifles.

The 2nd Battalion embraced their Rifles identity whole-heartedly, having been fitted out  as a light infantry corps when raised in 1793. It may be that for a short period the 2nd Battalion (Scottish Rifles) put their buglers in Rifle caps, when these were introduced circa 1890, before the Regiment adopted the shako for all circa 1892. The 2nd Bn were in India until 1895.. I can't decide whether that makes this scenario more or less likely. The 1st Bn,  meanwhile, were in England until 1894

I have to say, I am not very convinced myself.

On 11/07/2017 at 08:02, coldstream said:

 Regarding the various plumes you have shown us, the white over green over white short horsehair is worn by the Welsh Guards on left side of the bearskin cap, the all white similar one is worn by the Grenadier Guards also on the left side and both are for Non commissioned ranks.

Greetings. The two white  horsehair 'plumes' with red tops,  between the Foot Guards items mentioned above,  are likely to be to Other Ranks  of the Northumberland Fusiliers/ Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, for wear in the Full Dress fusilier fur cap. There are a  number of threads on the forum relating to these regiments.

The chapeau is technically a 'cap of maintenance' and  latterly signifies gentry rather than  the rank of peer. My g.grandfather, of comparively humble stock, was granted one in his coat of arms  by the Lord Lyon in 1912

As have we!

On 3/21/2017 at 01:02, Bayern said:

The badge is not much neat in the photo and the 10th and 11 th badges were very similar in shape . of course is not the badge of the 3rd of hussars . the date of the photo is around the turn of the century or more accurately between 1905 and 1914 . the haircut of your grandfather , the slim moustache and the clean shaved face , all are details of the era .

The 10th Prince of Wales's Own Hussars badge featured the PoW's emblem of the three feathers over the motto "ich dien' and the regimental title, while the 11th  Prince Albert's On Hussars badge featured the crest of the Prince Consort, "a pillar charged with the arms of Saxony rising out of the ducal coronet and also crowned with a similar coronet out of which rise 5 peacock feathers with the motto TREU UND FEST meaning 'Faithful and Strong'."  I would say the collar badge in the OP photograph clearly shows  the latter. 

7 hours ago, Flasheart said:

JF42,  

All of those drawings in the Carman/Fosten article are derived from David Morier's paintings, which now reside in the Queen's collection.   The paintings record the uniforms of grenadiers of all(?) the regiments in the British Army, and were apparently commissioned by the Duke of Cumberland.  They were completed sometime between 1751-1770.

Morier depicted the decorative embroidery (vines?) in various ways, including with fruit and or green leaves.  That doesn't necessarily mean that he actually saw the mitre caps from every unit and painted them exactly as they were manufactured.  Almost none of those enlisted mitres have survived, so we have no way of knowing if they are meticulously accurate representations of what the grenadiers were wearing, or whether he only knew the regulation facing colour and regulation emblem and used artistic licence to fill in the rest of the details.  

Here are the Morier paintings of grenadiers of the 6th, 17th and 32nd Regiments:

 

Indeed, the Fosten images were clearly based on the Morier paintings; a remarkable resource, (although incidentally, I believe the date of the set is more usually estimated between 1749 and 1751,  which may be based more on official papers relating to the uniforms illustrated than any more forensic detail relating to the artist or the paintings themselves).

Your point about the Morier grenadiers being painted from life is an interesting one, given that the regiments of the British army were dispersed around  the kingdom, colonies and other foreign possessions ( the same observation applies to the less ambitious Dayes set  comissioned by Howgill for the Duke of York  in the early 1790s). The likelihood of an individual from each regiment, fully dressed and accoutred, or even said clothing and accoutrements on their own, being sent to Morier's studio for him to paint, is not great.  There may have been some sealed items stored in London, although at this point in history, so many elements being at the discretion of the Colonels rather than presscribed by central authority, I doubt that much data for Morier's set could have come from that source. I believe by the mid-C18th regimental lace was being logged centrally to ensure consistency and to avoid duplication but, apart from that resource, Morier may therefore have had to work up his figures mostly from written information.

As for those fronds/vines, we can only guess. They are clearly there to fill space according to the shape of the individual badges or monograms, although the distinctive examples shown for the 17th and 32nd are both fitting round the standard "GR" rather than the individual badges of the 'Old Corps.'  As the illustrations show, even the 'GR" emblem presented considerable variation. Given the cottage industry element in uniform manufacture at this time, quality control and consistency of execution was not as likely as the word 'uniform' might suggest.

Thank you for drawing my attention to this.

 

Thanks Flash heart for posting this reference material.

This question is slighty off topic but  I notice that the Fosten article nor any other commentary refers to the  decorative fronds flanking the  badges on the front of the grenadier caps illustrated. These  vary considerably in form and seem in the case of some regiments to represent something more specific, in the colour of leaves, buds or fruit as it may be. e.g. the 6th, 17th and 32nd  Regiment examples.

Anyone care to hazard a guess as how we might describe  these decorative elements?

The hat would be the least of your problems.......

Can't argue with the numbers. Looks like it's WO 12  for you, my lad.

That would seem to be a valid working hypothesis; perhaps the most convincing element being the claim made in  the land grant application- (athough technically, simply  by enlisting in August 1783, one might argue  he served two months before the war was officially ended, but that is not an area I have  knowledge of). It seems to be quite  common that, for operational reasons,  Muster Rolls might be completed some time after the end date for the period they covered. It's not impossible that the relevant facts were lost, although presumably the bulk of the men (allowing for the odd death or desertion) would have been present in Nova Scotia  to provide the relevant information anew when records were being adjusted.

I take it that the Muster Roll does not state where the new men were enlisted. Clearly,  if it did then there would be no question. This detail could also have been supplied by the men.

The recording of the new enlistments on the same day as the discharge of the group being sent back to Britain is interesting; one might even think conveniently neat, except that the army were unlikely to deal in approximate dates, since it would mean paying a man more, or less, than the amount he was due.    Perhaps, these men were all enlisted 'in country' at the same place on the same day, from regiments that were shipping home. Another possibility is that these were American individuals from the Loyalist community, who were enlisting for want of other means to survive in their imminent exile. Is there a possibility that your ancestor was a colonial; perhaps even a soldier in one of the Provincial or Loyalist units?

All that said, in case I didn't express myself clearly, I think it is worth restating that, while the 57th Regiment were undoubtedly in New York in the summer of 1783, recruiting parties of the regiment, meanwhile, would have been operating back in Britain, as they would have been throughout the war. One thing we can be sure of is that the party shipped back to Britain in August 1783 were not  discharged simply because they had become surplus to requirement. Losing ten out of sixteen trained drummers at one time would have been inconvenient.  After seven years of campaigning, ill health and general exhaustion may have resulted in the older, or less robust men being weeded out. With the regiment only numbering 352 in November 1781 and 77 men being sent home in August 1783, the 57th  with a peace establishment of  about 450 enlisted men  would certainly have been in need of men, whether they found them locally or 'at home.'

Anyway, good luck. Let us know how you get on.

However, as a rough guide, the latest Order of Battle provided in the Nafziger collection :

usacac.army.mil/CAC2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/781KAD.pdf

- shows that the garrison of New York in November 1781  included these regiments of the line, or elements thereof,  cantoned either in or around the city.
40th
22nd
37th
38th
54th
42nd
57th

The regiments that surrendered with Cornwallis at Yorktown  the previous month included:

17th
23rd
33rd
43rd
2/71st
76th

80th
82nd L Coy

+ 2 LIght Infantry Battalions

  Nafziger cites this reference book

'Encyclopedia of British Provincial and German Army units 1775-1783'  (Katcher)

If you can lay your hands on it, you may find more details, but it may also only cite information up to November 1781.