Kev in Deva

My first Pakistani Military Medal bar:-

Left to Right:-

1. General Service Medal / Tamgha-e-Diffa, 1947

2. Nuclear Test Medal, 1998 / Tamgha-e-Baqa, A.H.1418.

3. Independence Day Golden Jubilee Medal, 2006.

After finding out what number 2 is for maybe I should see if they glow in the dark! lol!

Kevin in Deva.

With regards Silvered Inter-Allied Victory medals I again refer to the bottom of page 8 in "The Inter-Allied Victory Medals of World War 1, II Edition, by Alexander J. Laslo.

(4) A specimen of the British, Unofficial Type 3 Rumanian, and U.S. Victory Medal with a silver finish has been noted. Since the silver finish appears to have been added to beautify the receipiant's

medal after its issue or purchase, such specimens have not been categorized as a basic type.

Other examples with the added silver finish probably exsist throughout the Victory Medal series.

By the way at the Collectors Fair in Brasov, Central Romania, in amongst 150 tables of items, yesterday 01 September 2012 only 3 examples of the Romanian Inter-Allied Victory medals were observed by me, 1 Official with bronze finish and two Unofficial type 3's with gilt finish.

There is no evidence, whatsoever in Romania, that silver Romanian Royal period medals of any type are currantly being produced for Collectors outside the country, the original items such as the Romanian Cross of War (both types) 1916 - 1918 and 1916 - 1919 are readly available on places like Ebay, and Ebay France. (Its far harder to get the accompnying battle bars) There is evidence of vanity pieces being commissioned by Romanian military offices and military officer veterans in Romanian collections and museums.

Kevin in Deva.

In my honest opinion, any attempt to do anything with this would destroy it, and then another piece of history would be lost forever,

find it a nice corner in your display cabinet and cherish it just as you would an old soldier.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Gents,

sorry for the delay in getting to add a reply here, I have busy getting my step-daughter packed up and prepared for a move to Ireland in a week or so.

My thoughts are as follows:-

A silver Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal medal would not be covered by Decision 847, nearly every type of unofficial Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal have been seen as a bronze color or a gilt color, very possible the bronze colored ones were gilted originaly, as gilted versions are prominant on examples of many Romanian Officers bars in the Romanian Military Museum, and single items from WW1 veterans.

As a "silver" Romanian Victory medal, to my mind, its not an outright fake, but a private purchase / commissioned vanity item, I have seen an examples of The Romanian Cross of War being in gilt for Romanian Officers, where as the other ranks are invairaibly in a bronze color.

Then we must try to verify is it exactly the same size as the Un-official Type 3, made from the same die and silvered, is it a silver-plated Un-official Type 3 or is it a cast copy in silver?

I also have come across reference to Romanian Balkan Campain medals being cast in Silver for Romanian officers and having a silver hallmark on the ribbon bar between the leaves of the ribbon Öse, the medal itself being without a maker mark at the 6 o'clock postion on the rim.

I have also seen a green enameled Romanian Cross of War amongst the collection on exhibition in Timisoara, this too was privately commissioned by the original owner.

I see price gets mentioned here, a seller can ask anything and hope somebody pays for it. A high price has no bearing on the authenticity of an item, in my honest opinion.

Kevin in Deva.

This card is for Silver War Badge, not for regular WW1 pair or 14/15 trios Medal Index Card.

I am sure he had SWB as well. Paddy, can you please have a look at the SWB roll as well, my own laptop crashed and the one what I am using is pain in the ..... .

But his entitlement is marked on the card in the area of the red ink-stamped box:-

VICTORY :

BRITISH :

15 STAR :

Halo Jason,

welcome to the G.M.I.C., do you happen to have a picture of the gentleman in question?

(and of course, thanks to our other members for their imput.)

Kevin in Deva.

Hi Kevin,

So your point is that anything made in Romanian is by decision No.847 unofficial? Would not that rule also cover all Romanian medals ever ones made in other countries since there was no effort by the original manufacturer or government to issue a standard medal?

Your quote of A. Laslo's book.

The unofficial varieties of the Rumanian Victory Medal may have been prompted by a provision in Decision No. 847 which allowed veterans, after obtaining the authorizing brevet, to wear a facsimile Victory Medal purchased from a commercial source until the official version was sent and received. Given this sanction, it is speculated that several military outfitters began to produce the Victory Medal in advance of the official striking to meet perceived demand among veterans. Lacking an official example to use as a model, these outfitters had to resort to drawings of the medals design to fashion the dies which made a refined product more difficult to achieve.

May have been - tell me that Laslo did not know for sure.

speculated - Form's a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

So this whole paragraph you quoted is based on Laslo's own believes or conjecture.

Mr. Laslo put out a great book, but I known had he had full power of the internet as we do today, his book would have been different.

But like most great books, history has proven to us there is always something to be added, unless the book is not novel.

My relevant point comes from the Romanian perspective, being that with the Romanian Decision No. 847 there are in Romania enough examples / evidence to categorize many variants of the Romanian Victory medal that are known to exist in Romania, and which include those documented by Mr. Laslo plus others that I have come across here in Romania in the last 10 years, as being period pieces, these items do not, nor should they include the two known recent examples of reproductions, one from the USA with the name of the designer molded and standing proud of the medal, and a British reproduction (which when originally released on the market in the U.K. was being sold as a reproduction by the original maker, the chocolate brown type (in fact all the Inter-Allied medals were made in this same material by the manufacturer and all sold with the British version of the Inter Allied Victory Medal ribbon, many of this type turned up in Australia as well.

Fact:- The Romanian version of the Inter-Allied Victory medal issues were delayed by the fact that the French priority was to manufacture their own Victory medals before starting on the Romanian contract.

Fact:- That various unofficial varieties conforming to Mr. Laslo classification do exist on period Romanian Officer Medal bars.

Fact:- That I have seen among the varieties identified as per Mr. Laslo variations in diameter, design & material,

Again, I will point out there are many examples of unofficial Romanian victory medals on Romanian officers military medal bars in the Romanian Military Museum in Bucharest, as well as single Romanian medals presented for public view in the display cases to

NCO's and Privates as well as two examples to women for their services in Ww1.

Mr. Laslo attempts to identify the many variations of the Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal were extremely difficult in getting access to Romania in person during the communist period.

Indeed, it is sad that the late Mr. Laslo, did not have access to such a tool as the internet as I feel he would have been able to categorize even more variations.

I still stand by my claim that, its unwise to dismiss out of hand, any variations of the Romanian Inter-Allied Victory medal as being "FAKE" because of its appearance, I also re-state, that I have not come across, either at the "Targ de Collectioner" / "Day of the Collector" Fairs, in Romania, any recent made fakes, nor have I encountered any Fakes being offered on the national auction websites, in 10 years the only two examples are the ones listed in my post and originate outside of Romania, those engaged in faking tend to release quite a few items onto the market at the same time in an effort to get a return on their investment, classic example being the Polish Fantasy item, the Cuban, Brazilian, and Siam fakes that are known to exist.

Kevin in Deva.

Sorry johnnymac, but again the information in Mr. Laslo book would contradict that "Mona Lisa" view:-

Page 81:- Rumania

"The Rumanian Victory Medal . . . . .The unofficial varities of the Rumanian Victory Medal may have been prompted by a provision in Decision No. 847 which allowed veterans, after obtaining the authorising brevet, to wear a facsimilie Victory Medal purchased from a commercial source until the official version was sent and received. Given this sanction, it is speculated that several military outfitters began to produce the Victory Medal in advance of the official striking to meet perceived demand among veterans. Lacking an official example to use as a model, these outfitters had to resort to drawings of the medals design to fashion the dies which made a refined product more difficult to achieve.

This, plus inferior manufacturing techniques and perhaps some haste resulted in crude interpritations of the Victory Medal. Nevertheless, a significant number of veterans purchased these copies, with and without the authorising brevet; and a few veterans undoubttedly never botherered to apply for the official issue after a copy of the Victory Medal was obtained. Once the copy was added to a medal group, it tended to remain there; and consequently, it is not unusual to finda genuine Romanian group that contains a facsimile Victory Medal.

I do not know of any other country that gave authorisation for unofficial Victory Medals such as the Romanians as by Decision No. 847.

Most variations of the Romanian Victory Medal that I have handled here in Romania, are time worn pieces, there was no effort on the original fabricator's to make a 100% exact copy, and they are not being produced to meet a demand in Romania, and they would appear to be little or any effort to sell them abroad.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Hi Kevin, you have many, many good points. However I am with Rob on this one. So what is the proper word or classification for this medal, reproduction, copy, unofficial,or fake? I think each of these words could be applied, but I think an unknown sand casting might be a better choice. Now with that said, if you were to ask me on personnel level, I would say it was a very poorly made fake sand casting of a Romanian Victory Medal. IMO

Nice posting Bill

Regards to all,

Jim

Point taken, however a few of my thoughts with regards this:-

Page 7 of Mr. Laslo book says it for me, and I use as a very good guide:-

Official Issue:- . . . . . .

Reissue:- . . . . . .

Unofficial Issue:- A Victory Medal produced by a commercial firm and available from the firm or military out fitters for the purpose of providing to veterans a replacement medal of the official issue or an interrim medal to wear until distribution of the official issue.

Reproduction:- A Victory Medal produced by a commercial firm for the purpose of satisfyig the needs of Collectors.

Deciding on the best caegories and a suitable definition for each was only a part of the task of classsifying the different varieties of the Victory medal. The next step, and the hardest one, was the actual process of classifying; that is, assigning each varity under the appropriate category. (4) The results of the classification effort are summarized at the beginning of each chapter for each nation in the form of an easy reference Victory Medal checklist. The checklist and orther portions of the text undoubtedly contains errors and omissions, a condition entirely the fault of the author, which will hopefully be rectified as additional information on the subject is made known by members of that great body of phalerists.

(4) A specimen of the British, Unofficial Type 3 Rumanian, and U.S. Victory medal with a silver finish has been noted. Since the silver finish appears to have been aded to beautify the receipiant's medal after its issue or purchase, such specimens have not been catagorised as a basic type. Other examples with the added silver finish probably exsist throughout the Victory Medal series.

Period sand cast Romanian Victory medals are known to exsist of varying quality, many of the Romanian officer's bars on view in the Romanian Military Museum in Bucharest have unofficial WW1 Victory Medals on them with varying qualities of gilt / gilding.

I am living in Romania since 2002, I have not come across any modern Romanian made reproduction / fake Romanian Victory Medals, I have seen a model of a Romanian Victory medal being ofered out of the USA on ebay, where the designer name stands out in relief, rather than being engraved-moulded into the medal, this is an obvious fake.

During Mr. Laslo's time acces to information, even the varities of Romanian produced Inter-Allied Victory medals would have been hard, many Romanians hid them, along with the paper-work as they could land you in trouble under the Communist regime., since the Revolution in 1989, many Romanians have been able to go to Canada, many brought medals and other items out and sold them for a pittance, so its all probable that unknown examples of Romanian Inter-Allied Victory medals of varying quality could turn up.

Post W.W.1 up until about 1936 many Romanians emigrated to the U.S.A. / Canada and no doubt a few bought medals and other such items with them.

I would not dismiss such items, seen out of hand, by judging them on their poor quality as being a sign of a fake, if the price is right and a person is willing to take a gamble, you might very well have an original period piece.

But each to his own.

Kevin in Deva.

Hi Gents,

just got to wondering, did the D.D.R. train any units specificaly for mountain warfare?

I know they were a long way from the Alps, but if the Cold War went hot, they would have been heading into Germany along with their Soviet counterparts and possibly into Bavaria?

Kevin in Deva.

In my opinion the Hanseatic Cross is the only period original in the list,

the rest belongs in the fantasy / copy / poor repro section.

Kevin in Deva.

With regards the last item, which is a Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal,

it has to be remembered that while Mr. Laslo, in his book identified 1 official Type and Type 1, 2, 3, 3a, Unofficial Types,

I have come across variations of the variations, so to speak, there were many small town production facilities turning out cast and stamped variations, immediate post WW1, while waiting for the Official Types to be forwarded from France, some slightly larger, in diameter, some thinner, and some in a bronze / brass or zinky type material, it also has to be remembered that these types were officialy authorised by a Royal decree.

Dismissing a medal out of hand, because of its apperance, with regards Romanian Victory medals is not in my opinion, a good idea.

A couple of years ago I came across a Romanian dealer from Bucharest selling recent made copies that he had sourced from the U.K.! apparant by their choclate colour and British variation ribbon, when I quired him he confirmed he obtained a job lot from the U.K.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Hi Gordon,

They were from a former employee of the UPI in Tribune Towers being sold off on the net.

These particular ones were take in Berlin, I believe before the wall was built.

Kevin in Deva.

Very interesting thanks for posting AlecH!

Kevin in Deva.

Welcome back Leigh! :beer:

For some reason I am getting double posts I have deleted them. and now the pictures have gone in the original posts

Kevin in Deva.

Picture 4. "West Meets East."

Kevin in Deva.

Picture 3.

Kevin in Deva.

Picture 2.

Kevin in Deva.

Picture 1.

Kevin in Deva.

Speedy, many thanks for the additional information.

Kevin in Deva.

Some modern Spanish Military units carry the horn symbol in plastic as a clip on to the collar of the camo uniform, will dig one out and post some pictures.

Hi BURGERHAUS,

I will go out on a limb and speculate your piece predates mine,

as it appears to be a solid casting as opposed to being stamped.

Possibly no way to put individual serial number on stampings

other than a glued separate tab.

Kevin in Deva.

Rear:-

Kevin in Deva.

"KAMPFAUTRAG DER FDJ AUGUST 1961"

Kevin in Deva.

Rear:-

Kevin in Deva.