Anybody seen these index cards before

[JohnW]

I've been researching an officer and received these from the Bundesarchiv recently pertaining to the officer in question. Can anybody shed any light on them please? ie what are they and what information do they yield? Many thanks in advance.

John

[JohnW]

2

Edited July 23, 2007 by JohnW

[JohnW]

3

[Guest Rick Research]

Very interesting. As I understood it, they only release this information to next of kin, so I've never seen this sort of data before.

There are NO Third Reich Rank Lists showing reserve officers, so he was absolutely "invisible" as far as period public records.

Peter Werning, born 10 February 1904

was commissioned Leutnant der Reserve with seniority of 1.2.29 # 108 ( a mistake for .39 ?????) and in the reserve officer corps since 1.3.39 (hence my surmise about mistake). Killed in action with Infantry Regiment 26 at Desselghem on 24.5.40 per report to Landwehr District Schleswig by Xth Army Corps on 13.8.40.

[JohnW]

Very interesting. As I understood it, they only release this information to next of kin, so I've never seen this sort of data before.

There are NO Third Reich Rank Lists showing reserve officers, so he was absolutely "invisible" as far as period public records.

Hello Rick,

Many thanks for your speedy assistance. I remember asking last year about this Res. Off and you did say then that a reservist would not be recorded. Well...not to be put off I wrote to the WASt (still waiting for reply...) and also the Bundesarchiv (see letter below). I have proof of this chaps death (photo of his grave in Lommel, Belgium taken this year) and this was what they sent me. I do find it strange that no records are meant to be kept for Reservists though, I mean the Germans were meant to be meticulous with paperwork I thought.

As for the 1929 - I do not think that it is a mistake, more that he joined up in '29, served a few years before passing into the reserve and was commissioned on 01.03.39 after he was recalled. Is that possible? Is the number '3469' (top right), his army number? Also, what do the numbers 1400139 and 23.02.39 refer to (bottom right).

Thank you,

John

[Guest Rick Research]

It's possible he was an ex Reichsheer 12 years NCO subseqquently commissioned, but given normal practice a seniority of 1929 would make no sense.

Those are just file reference numbers.

Odd indeed that they found him in "Losses for Poland-West Balkans" ( ) but could find nothing else!

[JohnW]

It's possible he was an ex Reichsheer 12 years NCO subseqquently commissioned, but given normal practice a seniority of 1929 would make no sense.

Those are just file reference numbers.

Odd indeed that they found him in "Losses for Poland-West Balkans" ( ) but could find nothing else!

Okay, what about...he directly commissioned into the army in 1929 (aged 25) as a Lt., did his service as an officer for a few years (not sure what the length of service was) before being discharged and tx'd to the reserves (this is how we'd do it in the British Army). He was then recalled into the officer corps on 01 Mar 1939. This seems a more likely scenario does it not? I have a tunic to this chap and I am trying to build up a small biography.

[Guest Rick Research]

Nope. There were no "short timers" in the Reichsheer after the "Black Reichswehr" underground training of the very early 1920s.

With active officers in the expanding Wehrmacht of 1933+, ex-NCOs so selected were, after 12 years in the ranks, given a retroactive seniority to their 6th year of service and then almost immediately advanced another rank to Oberleutnant to compensate for their age and recognize their experience. Since reserve officers were "invisible," I don't know what "normal" practice might have been in the same circumstances

but seniority of ten years for a 2nd Lieutenant was unheard of after 1914.

The most likely explanation is a slip of the brain/pen with "2" instead of "3." Happened quite a bit in what would have been boring how-long-until-lunch drudgery.

[JohnW]

Nope. There were no "short timers" in the Reichsheer after the "Black Reichswehr" underground training of the very early 1920s.

With active officers in the expanding Wehrmacht of 1933+, ex-NCOs so selected were, after 12 years in the ranks, given a retroactive seniority to their 6th year of service and then almost immediately advanced another rank to Oberleutnant to compensate for their age and recognize their experience. Since reserve officers were "invisible," I don't know what "normal" practice might have been in the same circumstances

but seniority of ten years for a 2nd Lieutenant was unheard of after 1914.

The most likely explanation is a slip of the brain/pen with "2" instead of "3." Happened quite a bit in what would have been boring how-long-until-lunch drudgery.

I see...so he commissioned on 1 Feb 1939 (not '29) and was accepted into the off corps (as a Res. Lt) on 1 Mar 1939 - presumably after a one month officer training course of some type. He surely must have had prior service though to be commissioning at the age of 35! The tunic is dated 23.03.39 BTW, see pic. How many years would someone likely to have served and what rank would they have reached before being considered for commissioning?

[JohnW]

Here's a pic of the I.R.26 shoulder board showing the Lt rank and reserve grey underlay.

[Guest Rick Research]

Seniority was a strange thing in the German army.

I would say from the card dates and file numbers that on 23.2.39 he was officially to be commissioned from 1.3.39 with a seniority of 1.2.39 #108. That would have been to allow for last minute uniform alterations (surely it was no surprise that he was GOING to be commissioned) and to start off at a neat calendar point.

Seniority was not a matter of precise "clock time" but of precedence and giving a nudge--or not-- for future promotions.

In the Imperial period, Prussian Leutnants who held the Abitur school leaving certificate were given retroactive seniority back to several months before they actually joined (!!!) as cadets. That gave them a leg up for every single promotion afterwards since they were "senior" to officers commissioned at the same REAL day. So by the "seniority" AFTERWARDS, they had been commissioned before they even enlisted! That's why over in the Imperial section, you'll see us talking about some Leutnant being "vorpatentiert" with retroactive seniority for "next time."

During WW2, officers who held a German Cross or Knight's Cross also got a 1 year retroactive seniority bump back which moved them forward on the NEXT promotion schedules.

But never by 10 years!

[JohnW]

Seniority was a strange thing in the German army.

I would say from the card dates and file numbers that on 23.2.39 he was officially to be commissioned from 1.3.39 with a seniority of 1.2.39 #108. That would have been to allow for last minute uniform alterations (surely it was no surprise that he was GOING to be commissioned) and to start off at a neat calendar point.

Many thanks for all your help Rick, it is much appreciated, it helps to make the tunic more than just a piece of material. I had the tunic for a few years before finally trying to decipher the name, and when I got the grave marker photo - I got goose bumps! I'm just hoping that the WASt come up with something too.

John

Unfortunately I cannot get the pic any bigger with a 65k limit!

Edited July 24, 2007 by JohnW