A couple of cap badges

[Tony]

Hello,

I picked these badges up years ago before hearing of restrikes and fakes. As I?m going to have to raise some funds at the hurry up, I was wondering if any of you could say from the photos if they?re obvious restrikes or good originals.

Both are quite heavy and aren?t bendy.

Ta

Tony

[Tony]

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[Tony]

[Tony]

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[Graham Stewart]

Tony,

They both look pukha to me, but at the same time would say that they're officers collar badges, rather than cap badges. Still a must have item for the genuine collector.

Graham.

[Guest Rick Research]

What regiment is the eagle-pot-o-soup one?

I've had this photo since I was a kid, and could never make out the detail-- it always reminded me of the breast-rending pelican found on pre-Vatican II Catholic altars!

[Graham Stewart]

It's the "Liverpool Pals" or 17th to 20th(Service)Bn's, Kings(Liverpool Regt)(1st to 4th City) as it's officially known and they're one of the many locally raised service battalions of WWI, which went by the name of "Pals" battalions, although in actual fact it also included artillery and engineer units. These units shouldn't be confused with battalions of "Kitcheners New Armies", which are different. These were raised by Lord Derby in Liverpool and it's his crest which forms the badge.

The other badge belongs to the 11th(Service) Bn, Border Regt(Lonsdale), which was raised on the 17th Sept 1914, by the Earl of Lonsdale & an Executive Committee in Carlisle, Kendal and Workington, with it's H.Q. at Penrith. It went onto serve with 97th Bde/32nd Div.

Graham.

PS,

The reason I say they're officers collars is because they have that bronzed heavy finish to them.

[Tony]

Thanks Graham, that's good news. Just have to find out what I could get for them now.

Aren't they too large for collar dogs? Here's a SWB between them for size comparison.

Tony

[Tony]

I've had this photo since I was a kid, and could never make out the detail-- it always reminded me of the breast-rending pelican found on pre-Vatican II Catholic altars!

A great photo Rick, I wouldn't think you'll see many with that badge.

Tony

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks for clearing up a 40 year old mystery. No name or date on back, alas.

[Graham Stewart]

Tony,

Officers Service Dress bronzed collar badges tended to be the same size as cap badges and years ago I had a lovely photo of an 11th Border officer in SD wearing the bronze cap and collars. The difference was the cap badge had two fixing blades as opposed to lugs, which is why I'm looking at collars, but a Liverpool or Border Regt badge expert could possibly tell us differently.

Ironically the other ranks first pattern badges of the 11th Borders were made in solid silver, but a large proportion of them did a disappearing act not long after they were issued. Price wise it's difficult to say, but as single collars to rare units you'd be looking at a starting price of perhaps ?20-?30 each. If they can be proved to be cap badges then start at ?50 each, but seeing as I don't collect badges as I used to because of repro's I could be well wide of the mark.

On a well known auction site on the right day with two genuine collectors battling it out they may fetch more, with that in mind though I'd still put a reserve price on them.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

Hope you can guage from the attached photo the size of an officers service dress collar badge.

Graham.

[Tony]

Thanks again Graham. They sure are large aren't they.

I think I'll stick them on GMIC for sale first and then the well known auction site if they don't go.

Cheers

Tony

[leigh kitchen]

The cap badges of both units were originally issued in silver to the initial recruits.

Gaylor mentions, I think, the Lonsdales losing a lot of theres to a raid on them by another unit whilst in camp.

After the initial silver issue, which were personal gifts from Lord Derby to the men, the Liverpools cap badge was produced in bronze finish for other ranks.

I think that the Lonsdales cap badge was produced in brass / gilding metal only for OR's after the silver issue.

Given my usual reservation at identifying good or bad badges from photos & acknowledging that I may be wrong, the Liverpool badge looks like a genuine ORs bronzed cap badge to me (presumably it doubled as an officers cap badge & collar dog as well), the Lonsdales badge I'm not sure of, whether it's an ORs cap badge in yellow metal, officers bronzed collar dog, or if it's genuine.