British uniform ID c.1860?

[Munt]

Hello all, just wondering if anyone could help with the identification of the uniform worn here by my G-G-G Grandfather who lived in the London area and was born in 1838. Sorry but I cant enlarge it anymore as it will pixelate. Maybe militia? I'll leave it in your capeable hands. Paul.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Munt

[leigh kitchen]

Crossed muskets with slings lower left sleeve?

[Graham Stewart]

Paul,

Unfortunately there's little to help us out here and it would need a much clearer scan. If you have the original then scan it as normal and then download a programme called 'Microsoft Toys' where you'll find a photo re-sizer programme and use it to re-size your photo. It's a simple right click programme which gives a choice of three sizes, then all you have to do is use the Browse and Upload features here.

However this Microsoft programme doesn't work with Vista, but XP is fine.

[Munt]

Thanks Graham, but I don't have the original and now have no way of getting it either. I believe there is a date between those crossed muskets but it's impossible to see. Thanks for your input though. Paul.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Munt

[Munt]

Just tried to crop out the "unwanted bits" and resized it to the max before it gets too fuzzy. Hope this might help. Paul.

[Graham Stewart]

Hi Paul,

Even that little bit helped. The crossed rifles was standard throughout, the regulars, militia and volunteers, but as all of my copies of regulations are at home can't tell you what grade.

The uniform itself isn't what I expect to see and think it's a form of 'undress' jacket/frock coat of a pattern I'm not familiar with. The dark colour though would probably indicate it's probably 'dark green' rather than scarlet and if so then it's either Kings Royal Rifles or Rifle Brigade. At the same time Militia units or Rifle Volunteer units affiliated to either of these two regular units would wear uniforms relating to that affiliation.

I'll download your scan and pass it onto a friend who has an interest in the more unusual types of uniform. Did this relative have any form of know military service or are you just guessing Militia????

Edited October 4, 2008 by Graham Stewart

[Munt]

Graham, thanks again for your comments. This fellow was a well to do shoemaker, whose clients were mainly the upper class and included Lords and Ladies of that time. I've read up on the volunteer militia and found it was a bit of a "status" thing to be a member. However, I also read that most photos show them with their weapons as generally they were classy pieces. Regulars of course had their weapons locked away and generally weren't present in the photo This man was found in all census from 1851-1901 living in London as a shoemaker. I wouldn't have a clue how to research regs or militia from this time period (any hints) He could've been in the regs in the ten years betweem census' of course. On top of this the next four generations of David Martins were all infantrymen/Legionaires. So maybe this is where it all started?

Do the crossed rifles on his tunic have anything to do with his prowess as a marksman as this is also a trait that runs in my family?

Thanks for your help, Paul.

[leigh kitchen]

The crossed muskets or rifles badge has been in use for about 150 years. Nowadays it's worn by rifle Marksman on the lower left sleeve as a skill at arms badge, but originally it was worn from the mid - 1800's by members of the newly raised Corps of Instructors of Musketry as part of rank insgnia, but the Privates wore just the crossed rifles on the right sleeve.

Over time it's been designated as a badge for good shooting, target practise, weapon training & as a prize badge. At one time it was awarded in gold bullion to the best shot in each company instead of the worsted thread version to Marksmen.

The pattern of "rifle" used as the badge varies from the easily recognisable rifle to a version that appears to be a musket, some badges had slings, some did'nt.

If there's a fate embroidered on the badge in the photo, then I would imagine that it's a volunteer unit prize badge awarded in that year to best shot in the unit or at a specific inter-unit competition.

I'm interpreting the photo as a black buttoned dark, presumably green, rifle volunteer one.

The item shown on the chest I took to be a watch chain, but in the cropped photo it appears as if there's some embroidery or similar below it?

Graham?

[Graham Stewart]

Hi Leigh,

It's an unusual cut jacket, and not what you'd expect to see on any Rifle Volunteer or Militia unit, which would be of a better quality and cut. This is why I'm thinking an undress or frock coat.

After 1881 any Militia unit affiliated to either the KRRC or Rifle Brigade would follow their dress patterns, with very little to tell them apart except embroided titles. With the Rifle Volunteers affiliated to the same units it's slightly easier as they tend to have the addition of an Austrian knot on the cuff, but in this case we're not looking at a dress jacket, which makes it that bit harder.

The crossed rifles could be either red in colour(KRRC & affiliates) or apple green(RB & affiliates), but it won't have a date on it. The only additional devices for early Rifle Vols marksmens badges were a four pointed star, which indicated the distance of the shoot, but they're usually worn with a single musket, rather than crossed rifles.

Shooting competition badges weren't to be worn with uniform, but I have a nice photo in my own collection at home of competition badges being worn with a scarlet jacket by a Northumberland Fusilier, but it seems this jacket was only worn at competitions and not generally.

I've forwarded this photo to a guy who has references to other types of jacket being worn at this time to see if he has any idea's.

[Munt]

Graham and Leigh, thanks for your thoughts on this subject. I'd like to throw in this photo which I unearthed last night depicting men of the rifle brigade c1892.

As you can see the man centre back has the same style jacket as mine and the others are the same cut, thought a lot more attractive. This photo was found on a site called "Soldiers of the Queen" (just google that) which I accidently stumbled across last night. It's really an excellent site and well worth a look, all old photos of soldiers from the Victorian era.

This particular photo was under their "Home Front" heading, so maybe he was a militia/Territorial after all? I'll leave it to Graham's friend and see what he thinks. Thanks again. Paul