Golden Kite, 6th Class

[Dieter3]

I sure would have been happy to have won this, but I didn't even try to bid as I just don't have the money right now :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=220407808428

It looks like a really nice piece, about twice the price+ of what 7th classes seem to be going for recently. Is this a typical price for a 6th class (around $400.00 U.S.)? I'm wondering what is more valuable, the order, or the award document for it? :unsure:

Edited May 11, 2009 by Dieter3

[Paul L Murphy]

Considering that it is cased that was a reasonable price. The 6th class is a lot harder to find than the 7th class (it is even harder to find than the 5th class). The documents are a lot scarcer than the medals but the medals tend to make a higher price.

[Tim B]

Dieter,

Paul is correct, the 6th class is much rarer than the 7th class, but IMHO, this price is almost double what you can get them for. It's ebay and all depends on the amount of bidders and as always, comes down to "just who has to have it" that makes the price what it is. I have also seen where two bidders bid an extra high bid thinking that no one else will possibly bid that high, just to secure the deal and then find out someone else did the same; the result is an extra high selling price and probably a regretful winner.

Be paitient, there will be another one and I'll bet not that far off in the future.

I paid less than $300. for this one, cased in mint condition and have seen them go for much less than that lately, so don't worry!

Tim :cheers:

[Paul L Murphy]

Dieter,

Paul is correct, the 6th class is much rarer than the 7th class, but IMHO, this price is almost double what you can get them for. It's ebay and all depends on the amount of bidders and as always, comes down to "just who has to have it" that makes the price what it is. I have also seen where two bidders bid an extra high bid thinking that no one else will possibly bid that high, just to secure the deal and then find out someone else did the same; the result is an extra high selling price and probably a regretful winner.

Be paitient, there will be another one and I'll bet not that far off in the future.

I paid less than $300. for this one, cased in mint condition and have seen them go for much less than that lately, so don't worry!

Tim

You got a bargain. At the moment in Japan these are fetching about $600 cased and in good condition.

[Tim B]

Hi Paul!

Thanks, as I sometimes think I should have held off. I seen one recently sell for under $200.!!! in the same condition and thought, Sh1t! I paid too much. You just never know on ebay.

Same for those 3-legged Raven badges. I have two, one green and one red, mint in cases; one with the outer white cardboard box and was told they are very rare! Lately, I see them go for less than half what I spent. Maybe its the economy and more people with less disposable income, not sure.

What I don't see very often is the 5th class Golden Kite in excellent condition go for anything I consider affordable.

Here's a couple what I mean.

Tim

First PIC: 2 5th class awards, both near mint, little to no enamel damage; note the one on the right is actually a Meiji or Tashio era piece!! :speechless1:

Edited May 11, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Another one with the paper and of course...a 3rd class!

[Dieter3]

Tim, those are great! Very nice collection! I guess I'm too new to this, I haven't actually seen a 5th class for sale on eBay yet.

Another question: two posts up, you have a pair of 5th classes, one on the right has a rosette - are the rosettes for 5th and 6th class the same? The 6th that I posted from the eBay auction has the same number of bars (3 bars/6 rays) - though I see the ones in the photo are quite a bit thinner - a sign of earlier production??

[Tim B]

Hi Dieter,

First, the last two PICS showing the 5th class & 5th/3rd class awards are not mine; they were taken off past ebay auctions. I try to save those items that are of interest to me. I wish they were mine, but to reiterate a point on rarity and Paul's comment on prices, the 3rd class award sold for $4,255. and the 5th class ranged from $750. - $1125. depending on who wanted it and of course the little things like lapel devices and issue paper that might be included. Again, all depends on "who just has to have it" and if there are more than one, then the bidding wars jack the price up, sometimes to insane amounts.

Second, The rosettes for the 6th and 5th class are different; the 6th class (lower grade award) has six rays, while the 5th class award has eight rays. This is true of all the awards (Rising Sun; Sacred Treasure; etc.).

Now, to your question on different rosette styles, this one is a bit more fuzzy and Paul can probably help here more than I and I hope he puts some good examples up on this thread or at least in any upcoming book on Japanese awards as many of these ebay auctions have "sets" that are not all original to each other and some consider them made up for sale. Truth is, I don't think most of the ebay sellers really know (or care) about the differences. Anyway, you noticed that some have narrower rays in the rosette. I believe, and correct me if I am wrong here Paul, that the earlier (Meiji and possibly Tashio) rosettes had these narrower lines (rays) and the Showa period had the thicker rays. We are talking 6th class and higher as the 7th and 8th class awards actually had ribbon "bows" for Meiji (and Tashio?) era pieces.

I'll try to make up a PIC to post the various differences in levels and eras later.

The part where I get confused is when we are looking at the 4th class and higher awards on the Meiji/Tashio era pieces. I know the rosette was pleated in the center on this level, but just what the Meiji styles werre supposed to look like is still a question for me. Of all the Meiji era Rising Suns I have seen for sale, almost all of them come with a Meiji era 5th class rosette or the same rosette I see with Showa period pieces.

Take your time and learn here before sinking a lot of money into it Dieter. Paul is probably the most knowledgable person here on Japanese awards, so he's the man to ask!

Hope that helped.

Tim

[Tim B]

Not meaning to hijack the thread or get too far off topic, but as Dieter asked questions on lapel devices...

Here is a quick matrix of the different level rosettes. Keep in mind two things; first, the Golden Kite did not have an 8th class award, 7th was the lowest. Second, the patterns on the lapels are the same for other awards as mentioned above, I just show the Rising Sun for quick and easy reference.

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's a closeup of Meiji (L) vs Showa ® 5th class rosettes. You can see the difference in the lines (rays).

This Meiji piece actually came in a Meiji era 4th class set, which appears to be common practice, at least on ebay.

Tim

[Paul L Murphy]

What Tim said on rosettes is correct. The thinner stripes seem to indicate earlier made pieces. Part of the problem in trying to reach conclusions on issues like this is the extent to which Japanese dealers mix & match so you need to get pieces that have good provenance to support any theory like this.

[Tim B]

I have noticed a slight variation in styles sometimes but think this is more due to hand manufacturing instead of being attributed to different manufacturers or timelines.

Note how high one is and how much deeper the center is set. Both 5th class Showa awards.

[Tim B]

Yes, I agree with that statement Paul; as it appears most if not all records were destroyed in the war (WWII), we may never really know either way without some good collections with provenance or coming directly from the families. Even then???

Here is another example that I still don't know for sure. Two Sacred Treasures; the one on the left is cleary Meiji, but it came with a 6th class award. My guess is NOT! But, what is it supposed to be to? The one on the right is clearly pleated and what appears to be typical for a 4th class award (modeling the larger rosette on the suspension ribbon). I have two Meiji era 4th class awards from different makers and both have this style rosette.

So... Could this be where the one on the left is actually what a Meiji era 4th class is supposed to look like; without the round border?

Can be very confusing, but they are still relatively cheap compared to German awards!

Tim

Edited May 11, 2009 by Tim B

[Dieter3]

Thanks for all those pics. and the info!! This is all very helpful for the likes of me.

So if I can summarize correctly, it looks like Meiji (possibly early Taisho?) 8th and 7th class rosettes are of the lapel pin/bow style, then 6th class on up was the round button type. Then a change was made in Showa era (perhaps late Taisho as well, some crossover?) and everything changed to round/button style. The styling differences certainly are interesting.

On the higher levels, how many folds/ruffles are appropriate for each one? Looks like the fourth class has 8 or 10 depending on how it is observed?

Rather than start a new topic here, I'll just add since we are on the subject of rosettes: there seem to be an significant number of them (mostly higher classes, Rising Sun and Sacred Treasure) on Y!JA - but they seem to be listed as "new" - so is there somebody/company out there making knock-offs, and if so, how does one distinguish between those and authentic ones, has anybody seen these first hand?? :(

Edited May 12, 2009 by Dieter3

[Tim B]

Hi Dieter,

Most welcomed and please keep in mind that I am not the primary source of good information, but guys like Paul Murphy have helped me out immensely when I first started out and the best recommendation is to ask questions on the forums. I will certainly help where I can!

Instead of trying to answer each question here, what I can do is include some links to various Japanese sites that have LOTS of great information and you can hopefully glean what you need to know from these sites and we can go from there. So, here goes....

Tim

http://www.jacar.go.jp/english/index.html

Imperial Japan Medals and Badges

Orders and Medals of Japan

?M??

Decoration Bureau

Not sure if the links actually work or if you have to cut & paste as when I tried to add the links direct, I was dropped out of this site. Let me try it and I may have to go to the sites to get the actual http addresses. SEE BELOW

Edited May 12, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Let's try that again:

http://www.jacar.go.jp/english/index.html

http://p2.hostingprod.com/@imperialjapanme....com/index.html

http://www.xavierb.net/japan/ (need Java)

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/tonekousyou/yukikaz...u/f_kunsyou.htm

http://www8.cao.go.jp/english/decoration/index.html

[Tim B]

Rather than start a new topic here, I'll just add since we are on the subject of rosettes: there seem to be an significant number of them (mostly higher classes, Rising Sun and Sacred Treasure) on Y!JA - but they seem to be listed as "new" - so is there somebody/company out there making knock-offs, and if so, how does one distinguish between those and authentic ones, has anybody seen these first hand??

Dieter,

I heard of that venue, but I could never find it. Can you send me a link or PM with the info as I am curious as well. I have heard of issues regarding this site before. Thanks!

Tim

[Dieter3]

Tim, PM Sent!!! But it doesn't appear in my "SENT" folder, let me know if you did not receive it......

[Paul L Murphy]

Thanks for all those pics. and the info!! This is all very helpful for the likes of me.

So if I can summarize correctly, it looks like Meiji (possibly early Taisho?) 8th and 7th class rosettes are of the lapel pin/bow style, then 6th class on up was the round button type. Then a change was made in Showa era (perhaps late Taisho as well, some crossover?) and everything changed to round/button style. The styling differences certainly are interesting.

On the higher levels, how many folds/ruffles are appropriate for each one? Looks like the fourth class has 8 or 10 depending on how it is observed?

Rather than start a new topic here, I'll just add since we are on the subject of rosettes: there seem to be an significant number of them (mostly higher classes, Rising Sun and Sacred Treasure) on Y!JA - but they seem to be listed as "new" - so is there somebody/company out there making knock-offs, and if so, how does one distinguish between those and authentic ones, has anybody seen these first hand??

The rosettes are new because, with the exception of the Golden Kite, all of these orders are still being awarded and hence there is a need for new rosettes for living recipients who want them.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Paul L Murphy

[Dieter3]

The rosettes are new because, with the exception of the Golden Kite, all of these orders are still being awarded and hence there is a need for new rosettes for living recipients who want them.

AHHH! That explains it! - Are they being made through the national mint? I'm wondering, how does someone acquire so many? (referring to a seller that has lots of them.....) - I'd think one would need to demonstrate somehow that they were an award recipient to get one, maybe not?

[Dieter3]

Be paitient, there will be another one and I'll bet not that far off in the future.

You called that one. Sure enough, another has shown up, same seller! Maybe it's just me, but a lot of items that I would at least consider less common seem to pop up in "sales clusters"..... maybe it's just the way the cards fall, or some sort of sales strategy. Oh well, doesn't matter for me, I'm many moons away from having the funds it will take to acquire one! Patience, patience.....

[Tim B]

:P

Yes, something I actually learned collecting German militaria and believe it or not, Detlev Niemann was the one that gave me that advice long ago when his Friday feeding frenzies were at their highest. I have found that when you don't see the items you want--in the quality or condition you want--don't accept lessor items, just collect something else in the meantime. Eventually, what you really want will come available, sometimes cheaper and you don't have to regret your purchase of the lessor quality item or worry how to offload it and not lose money.

Paitience grasshopper!

Tim :beer:

[Paul L Murphy]

AHHH! That explains it! - Are they being made through the national mint? I'm wondering, how does someone acquire so many? (referring to a seller that has lots of them.....) - I'd think one would need to demonstrate somehow that they were an award recipient to get one, maybe not?

I think the rosettes are a private purchase item. I also know at least one dealer in Japan who directly knows the company who supplies them so he basically has a large box full of them, all classes and all orders. They are not scarce and, while nice to have, they should not add significantly to the value of a cased medal.