France AL-VALORE

[Yankee]

Dear Gentleman

Recently there was a Al Valore in a auction. I was unable to completely translate the inscription . I'm fairly certain it was given to a Frenchman because of Vauban. Reason to have posted in this section and not Italian. The inscription "LAVAGNE

l.ER M.TRE MAN

LE VAUBAN"

google LE VAUBAN and hotels pop up.... Anybody translate this pleas.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Bison]

I think it is:

"Premier Maître de manoeuvre LAVAGNE"

Cuirassé LE VAUBAN...

[Veteran]

I fully agree (as usual !) with Bison's translation of the inscription

As an addition, a Premier Maître in the French Navy is the equivalent of a Petty Officer in the Royal Navy. The caption MAN folowing the rank means "de manoeuvre", namely the members of the ship's company in charge of sailing the ship. Other specialties being guners, stokers, etc..

The ship shown on the post-card was a later battle-cruiser class with the same name (Vauban was a well known War Minister of Louis XIV best known for his talent to fortify cities). "Le Vauban" of Italian campaign times was a paddle frigate.

Very nice medals these Al Valore Militare. King Victor-Emmanuel II was genereous with them to the French, but those to the Navy don't come up very often.

Regards

Veteran

Edited October 8, 2009 by Veteran

[Yankee]

I think it is:

"Premier Maître de manoeuvre LAVAGNE"

Cuirassé LE VAUBAN...

Hi Bison

This is the war ship that was used in the 1859 Italian Campaign?

[Yankee]

I fully agree (as usual !) with Bison's translation of the inscription

As an addition, a Premier Maître in the French Navy is the equivalent of a Petty Officer in the Royal Navy. The caption MAN folowing the rank means "de manoeuvre", namely the members of the ship's company in charge of sailing the ship. Other specialties being guners, stokers, etc..

The ship shown on the post-card was a later battle-cruiser class with the same name (Vauban was a well known War Minister of Louis XIV best known for his talent to fortify cities). "Le Vauban" of Italian campaign times was a paddle frigate.

Very nice medals these Al Valore Militare. King Victor-Emmanuel II was genereous with them to the French, but those to the Navy don't come up very often.

Regards

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Many thanks for translating the inscription. Had no idea that Al Valores were given to the Navy too . What an exciting medal . Thouht the medal was awarded to an officer in an engineer company when I saw the name Vauban. Were there other Naval ships that participated in the conflict or only the Le Vauban that received the Al Valore? Have you a picture of a paddle frigate?

Sincerely

Yankee

[Bison]

Hi Bison

This is the war ship that was used in the 1859 Italian Campaign?

Hi Yankee

Oups, I was mistaken, sorry.

The right ship during the Crimea War and the Italian Campaign is a paddle frigate launched in 1845, like this one :

Regards

[Yankee]

Hi Yankee

Oups, I was mistaken, sorry.

The right ship during the Crimea War and the Italian Campaign is a paddle frigate launched in 1845, like this one :

Regards

Hi Bison

Many kind thanks for posting that neat paddle ship of war . Only ones I ever see are the gambling boats that go up the Savannah river. I don't think these ships were too popular in the Navies for you seldom see them pictured. In the Unite States Navy they'd be a rarity if they were even constructed.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Veteran]

Hello Yankee

To answer your earlier question about Al Valore Militare medals to other ships, I personnally know of at least two : "Le Descartes" and "La Ville de Paris". There are others, but I have not yet been able to get to the file (if it exists) at the Naval Archives establishment in Vincennes.

A French naval squadron was sent to the Adriatic to check the Austrian Navy who had ports in Trieste and Pola.

Regards

Veteran

[Yankee]

Hello Yankee

To answer your earlier question about Al Valore Militare medals to other ships, I personnally know of at least two : "Le Descartes" and "La Ville de Paris". There are others, but I have not yet been able to get to the file (if it exists) at the Naval Archives establishment in Vincennes.

A French naval squadron was sent to the Adriatic to check the Austrian Navy who had ports in Trieste and Pola.

Regards

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Thank you for supplying the list of ships. Earlier you had written that the Italian King was generous in giving out the Al Valore to the Frech. Does this hold true to the Crimea campaign 1854-56 as well. Or were the Italian authorities more strict in handing out the Al Valore to the French.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Veteran]

Victor-Emmanuelle II awarded 1.200 Al Valore Militare (AVM) medals to the French for the Crimean campaign (Spedizione d'Oriente). Only very few to Naval personnel (17 to guners who maned naval guns engaged during the siege of Sebastopol, all were petty officers or ratings + 2 to officers at GHQ)

8.000 AVM were awarded to the French Army + an unknown number to the French Navy for the Italian war. They are all engraved with the caption, in French "GUERRE D'ITALIE".

Crimean AVMs are very scarce on the market. A review published a few years ago by Tony Margrave, an outstanding scholar of th Crimean War suggested only about 150 of them are known in various collections.

Regards

Veteran

Edited October 9, 2009 by Veteran

[Yankee]

Victor-Emmanuelle II awarded 1.200 Al Valore Militare (AVM) medals to the French for the Crimean campaign (Spedizione d'Oriente). Only very few to Naval personnel (17 to guners who maned naval guns engaged during the siege of Sebastopol, all were petty officers or ratings + 2 to officers at GHQ)

8.000 AVM were awarded to the French Army + an unknown number to the French Navy for the Italian war. They are all engraved with the caption, in French "GUERRE D'ITALIE".

Crimean AVMs are very scarce on the market. A review published a few years ago by Tony Margrave, an outstanding scholar of th Crimean War suggested only about 150 of them are known in various collections.

Regards

Veteran

Hello again

Thanks for those statistics they are much appreciated. The reason why I had asked you if there was also many awarded for the Crimea campaign is because I recently saw one on an overseas dealer list. As I recall it was to a French Officer in the Foreign Legion. I always see them awarded to the British but never to the other Allies.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Veteran]

Hello Yankee

That AVM to an Foreign Legion officer would certainly have attracted much attention and made a very good price : only 12 AVM to the 2nd Foreign Regiment, 10 of which went to officers : Colonel de Chabrière, Lt.Colonel Martinez (I happen to know where it is), 2 Majors (Chefs de bataillons), 4 Captains, one Lieutenant and one Second Lieutenant.

Do you remember what price was asked for it ?

Regards

Veteran

[Yankee]

Hello Yankee

That AVM to an Foreign Legion officer would certainly have attracted much attention and made a very good price : only 12 AVM to the 2nd Foreign Regiment, 10 of which went to officers : Colonel de Chabrière, Lt.Colonel Martinez (I happen to know where it is), 2 Majors (Chefs de bataillons), 4 Captains, one Lieutenant and one Second Lieutenant.

Do you remember what price was asked for it ?

Regards

Veteran

Hi Veteran

You must have some excellent reference books that give such details . Perhaps you can suggest some books that would be a help for me on this subject. You can see the medal itself at www.liverpoolmedals.co.uk Look under Italian section. As I recall it was around 3 thousand pounds. I think the medal is orginal but I'm no expert. With the German State medals that are rare you really need to be very careful perhaps with the Al Valor copies don't exist. You can look at the names from your list & see if there is a match from the dealers one .

Sincerely

Brian

[Veteran]

Hi Veteran

You must have some excellent reference books that give such details . Perhaps you can suggest some books that would be a help for me on this subject. You can see the medal itself at www.liverpoolmedals.co.uk Look under Italian section. As I recall it was around 3 thousand pounds. I think the medal is orginal but I'm no expert. With the German State medals that are rare you really need to be very careful perhaps with the Al Valor copies don't exist. You can look at the names from your list & see if there is a match from the dealers one .

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Yankee

I have a photocopy of the original list of AVMs awarded to the French for the Crimea. The Crimean AVM to Capitaine AUBRY sold by Liverpool Medals is the absolute original and the price is there also (£3.495 ! = $5.500). The pictures are good and the naming is identical to Lt.Col. Martinez's AVM.

Namings on AVMs to Frenchmen for the Crimean campaign were all made by the same contractor and can easily be recognized.

This is no so for the Italian campaign AVMs which were named by their owners or possibly a number of units. Naval officers' AVMs were often not named at all, many of them just not bothering. Naming of AVM to naval petty-officers and ratings, on the other hand, might well have been contracted to one same firm, as the few medals known seem to be engraved in the same script .

All very interesting. Thank you

Veteran

Edited October 10, 2009 by Veteran

[Yankee]

Hi Yankee

I have a photocopy of the original list of AVMs awarded to the French for the Crimea. The Crimean AVM to Capitaine AUBRY sold by Liverpool Medals is the absolute original and the price is there also (£3.495 ! = $5.500). The pictures are good and the naming is identical to Lt.Col. Martinez's AVM.

Namings on AVMs to Frenchmen for the Crimean campaign were all made by the same contractor and can easily be recognized.

This is no so for the Italian campaign AVMs which were named by their owners or possibly a number of units. Naval officers' AVMs were often not named at all, many of them just not bothering. Naming of AVM to naval petty-officers and ratings, on the other hand, might well have been contracted to one same firm, as the few medals known seem to be engraved in the same script .

All very interesting. Thank you

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Great news that you are able to confirm the award. As I understand from Liverpool the Regiment took a huge amount of casualties which would make the medal much more attractive to collectors or is there a larger interest in Foreign Legion medals. Or perhaps a combination of both and would explin the price. I purchased an Italian Campaign Al Valor given to a Frenchman for a fraction of 5000 and as you point out many more were issued then the Crimea awards. I don't know if that is a ( Crimea Al Valor ) good price or not any idea? Do you know if Captin Aubry received the Legion Of Honour? I have noticed several styles of engraving on the 1859 Italian Campign some neatly done some not. Now I know why Thanks for informing me

Sincerely

Brian

[Veteran]

Hi Veteran

Great news that you are able to confirm the award. As I understand from Liverpool the Regiment took a huge amount of casualties which would make the medal much more attractive to collectors or is there a larger interest in Foreign Legion medals. Or perhaps a combination of both and would explin the price. I purchased an Italian Campaign Al Valor given to a Frenchman for a fraction of 5000 and as you point out many more were issued then the Crimea awards. I don't know if that is a ( Crimea Al Valor ) good price or not any idea? Do you know if Captin Aubry received the Legion Of Honour? I have noticed several styles of engraving on the 1859 Italian Campign some neatly done some not. Now I know why Thanks for informing me

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

Glad you enjoyed the information. Foreign Legion material is very scarce and extremely popular because of the Regiment's legend. The number of AVM for the Crimea to each regiment in the French Army varied between 10/15 for the infantry and 5/10 for cavalry and other types of units. Since there was only one Legion regiment and 40 line regiments, the proportion is easy to compute.

Whether the price requested is steep or not is for the market to tell. If it goes, the price was right. For a Foreign Legion avid collector it might well be the once in a life-time. It all depends how deep is one's pocket, I guess.

Italian AVMs for the campaign in Italy sell well into the 700/1200 Euros. An officer's might make more. But they don't turn up that often either.

These AVM have the added appeal of being named, which just did not exist in the French award system.

Incidentally, if you tell me the name on your AVM for Italy, I might be able to tell you how many were issued to that unit.

Regards

Veteran

[Yankee]

Brian

Glad you enjoyed the information. Foreign Legion material is very scarce and extremely popular because of the Regiment's legend. The number of AVM for the Crimea to each regiment in the French Army varied between 10/15 for the infantry and 5/10 for cavalry and other types of units. Since there was only one Legion regiment and 40 line regiments, the proportion is easy to compute.

Whether the price requested is steep or not is for the market to tell. If it goes, the price was right. For a Foreign Legion avid collector it might well be the once in a life-time. It all depends how deep is one's pocket, I guess.

Italian AVMs for the campaign in Italy sell well into the 700/1200 Euros. An officer's might make more. But they don't turn up that often either.

These AVM have the added appeal of being named, which just did not exist in the French award system.

Incidentally, if you tell me the name on your AVM for Italy, I might be able to tell you how many were issued to that unit.

Regards

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Only one Foreign Legion Regiment sent to the Crimea. What a super scarce medal. I too was thinking that it would be a once in a lifetime acquisition, certainly the crown in anyones collection. I'm primarily an orders collector but I see how exciting it is to stray into this area of collecting. What I really like about these bravery medals is that you have a name to it. Thanks for your kind offer, hopefullly I can dig up the info on that medal today. It certainly would be nice to know something about the regiment and numbers issued. Can the soldier be researched too or is that only with the English medals? Thanks

Sincerely

Brian

[Yankee]

Hi Veteran

The AVM that I purchased is inscribed to GHAMOUILLE

Canonier

9eD'ART

1859 Italian Campaign.

Any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely

Brian

[Veteran]

Brian

I confirm that the 9th Artillery Regiment was in Italy as part of the 3rd Army Corps. 13 AVMs were awarded to this Regiment on March 16th 1860 and a further 52 on March 20th. Which makes a total of 65 to the Regiment.

Your guner's name might rather be : CHAMOUILLE (sounds in French like "chat mouillé" = wet cat !). In fact, the name of a village in Eastern France, possibly were his family originally came from.

I have the general list of AVMs for Italy broken down to unit level. I cannot ascertain that this man was on the list, but few fakes are known to exist, and they would rather be to other types of units.

Regards

Paul

[Yankee]

Brian

I confirm that the 9th Artillery Regiment was in Italy as part of the 3rd Army Corps. 13 AVMs were awarded to this Regiment on March 16th 1860 and a further 52 on March 20th. Which makes a total of 65 to the Regiment.

Your guner's name might rather be : CHAMOUILLE (sounds in French like "chat mouillé" = wet cat !). In fact, the name of a village in Eastern France, possibly were his family originally came from.

I have the general list of AVMs for Italy broken down to unit level. I cannot ascertain that this man was on the list, but few fakes are known to exist, and they would rather be to other types of units.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul

I apologize after taking a closer inspection your were right his name is CHAMOUILLE. The C looks a bit like the G which explains my silly mistake. That is neat that there is a good chance the village is named after his family. Glade to hear that his Regiment was in Italy at that time The fakes are the medal itself or are the forgers using orginal struck pieces and inscribing a fraudulent dedication? Safe to say the fakes would be to the Imperial Guard?

Sincerely

Brian

[Veteran]

Hi Paul

I apologize after taking a closer inspection your were right his name is CHAMOUILLE. The C looks a bit like the G which explains my silly mistake. That is neat that there is a good chance the village is named after his family. Glade to hear that his Regiment was in Italy at that time The fakes are the medal itself or are the forgers using orginal struck pieces and inscribing a fraudulent dedication? Safe to say the fakes would be to the Imperial Guard?

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

Don't get me wrong. Chamouillé's family name possibly came from the fact that they moved from that village to another location, and were nicknamed Chamouillé; village names antidated surnames all over Europe.

Fakes have always existed. The very famous Côte collection sold in 1914 from which came Capt. AUBRY's AVM had two fake AVMs for the Crimea : one silver to a "cantinière" with the 2nd Zouaves and a bronze specimen named to an Algerian Tirailleur (bronze AVMs were only created during WW1). The Zouaves were very popular, considered to be crack regiments, and the Tirailleurs (sometimes refered to as "Turcos" in those days) had an attractive oriental flavor.

This being said, I would agree that AVMs for the Italian campaign to line or artillery regiments would have good chances to be genuine. Moreover period medals have a look and feel of their own. Naturally, very good fakes will go undetected. In doubt, a second opinion can be very useful.

Regards

Paul

Edited October 13, 2009 by Veteran

[Yankee]

Brian

Don't get me wrong. Chamouillé's family name possibly came from the fact that they moved from that village to another location, and were nicknamed Chamouillé; village names antidated surnames all over Europe.

Fakes have always existed. The very famous Côte collection sold in 1914 from which came Capt. AUBRY's AVM had two fake AVMs for the Crimea : one silver to a "cantinière" with the 2nd Zouaves and a bronze specimen named to an Algerian Tirailleur (bronze AVMs were only created during WW1). The Zouaves were very popular, considered to be crack regiments, and the Tirailleurs (sometimes refered to as "Turcos" in those days) had an attractive oriental flavor.

This being said, I would agree that AVMs for the Italian campaign to line or artillery regiments would have good chances to be genuine. Moreover period medals have a look and feel of their own. Naturally, very good fakes will go undetected. In doubt, a second opinion can be very useful.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul

Didn't know the Zouaves Regiments were known to be elite. In the early stages of the American Civil War both sides raised Zouave Regiments but there were no North Africans in the ranks. Certainly the South would never tolerate arming an African. Any Yankee (White) officer captured in an all black regiment was executed by the South, tells you their code of ethics. Strange how the South had no problem displaying their soldiers in this traditional African style of uniform. The time to be extra cautious when finding an AVM is to an exotic regiment, good advice to remember. Ahhhh very happy with my wet cat

Sincerely

Brian

[Veteran]

Hi Paul

Didn't know the Zouaves Regiments were known to be elite. In the early stages of the American Civil War both sides raised Zouave Regiments but there were no North Africans in the ranks. Certainly the South would never tolerate arming an African. Any Yankee (White) officer captured in an all black regiment was executed by the South, tells you their code of ethics. Strange how the South had no problem displaying their soldiers in this traditional African style of uniform. The time to be extra cautious when finding an AVM is to an exotic regiment, good advice to remember. Ahhhh very happy with my wet cat

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

Zouave regiments were exclusively maned by European soldiers, but they belonged to the French Army in Africa, at least originally. "Native" troups were the Tirailleurs also called Turcos, with mostly European non-coms and European officers.

The fighting reputation of the Zouaves was such that a number of other countries wished to have units by that namt (including American and Papal Zouaves).

Regards

Paul

[Yankee]

Brian

Zouave regiments were exclusively maned by European soldiers, but they belonged to the French Army in Africa, at least originally. "Native" troups were the Tirailleurs also called Turcos, with mostly European non-coms and European officers.

The fighting reputation of the Zouaves was such that a number of other countries wished to have units by that namt (including American and Papal Zouaves).

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul

Wow sure got my facts all wrong. I didn't know the Tirailleurs were formed into regiments in the Italian Campaign. Were the Turcos treated equally as the other French line regiments? Were many AVM's awarded to the Tirailleurs? I suppose the Austrians must have been in shock to encounter an enemy they have never seen before.

Sincerely

Brian

[Veteran]

Hi Paul

Wow sure got my facts all wrong. I didn't know the Tirailleurs were formed into regiments in the Italian Campaign. Were the Turcos treated equally as the other French line regiments? Were many AVM's awarded to the Tirailleurs? I suppose the Austrians must have been in shock to encounter an enemy they have never seen before.

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

The Regiment of Tirailleurs (nicknamed "Turcos") were engaged in the Crimean campaign and received 7 AVMs, 2 of which went to native Algerians (one sergeant and one bugler).

114 AVMs went to the Tirailleurs for the Campaign in Italy, but I have no idea how many were awarded to native Algerians. A conservative estimate would be 10 to 20. This was a generous batch, quite comparable to the numbers allotted to other Infantry units, and possibly more than some all French regiments received.

In both instances, the Sardinian Government made a number of medals available for the French Army to decide who would be honored. Offical lists were submitted and the appropriate diplomas issued by the Sardinians.

Tirailleurs were popular with the general public in France who thought they were exotic. Their officers saw that the Regiments were properly treated and the men were warriors to their families. Since fighting in Algeria practically never stopped between 1830 and 1870 the best French officers were keen on having a command with them.

Regards

Paul

Edited October 15, 2009 by Veteran