British red serge cavalry frocks

[cbuehler]

Hello all!

This being my first post, I am starting of with a query for the uniform experts. Can anyone provide some info or pics showing the red Cavalry serge frock as worn from approx. 1900 to 1914. These were four pocket, some having shoulder chains, some plain shoulder straps. Most that I have seen have seen had no collar facings other than red, but apparently some regiments (dragoons?) had collars with facing colors that were similar to pointed staff tabs. Additionally, some regiments wore collar dogs, some without.

Photos seem to be scarce and show considerable differences in detail depending upon regiment or exact period. Any more info would be much appreciated. Thanks!

CB

[Graham Stewart]

Hi CB & welcome to the GMIC.

Cavalry uniforms aren't really my field, but I think I know the pattern uniform that you're on about. In all of the illustrations I have seen, where shoulder chains are worn and with coloured collars, they appear to be worn by Yeomanry regiments. For instance the Northumberland Hussars had a light blue facing collar, but it was worn with a dark blue jacket and not scarlet.

As for illustrations an old friend of mine - "Bob Marrion" did a lot of work for the "Military Modeller" magazine in the 1980/90's and I recall a particular edition which covered Yeomanry regiments and in particular coloured facings. He also did a lot of illustrations for a series of books that can be bought on E.bay, but I can't remember the title for the moment.

The Fosten brothers also did a series in the same magazine called "The Cut of the Cloth", which was beautifully illustrated in their particular style and they did cover all of the regular cavalry.

Apologies if it's not the best answer I can give, but I'll try and direct you to the relevant reference books available here in the UK(thats if you haven't already got them).

[Graham Stewart]

One of the Yeomanry books illustrated by Bob Marrion.

[cbuehler]

Thanks much Graham,

I believe shoulder chains to have been worn on regular cavalry frocks as well. I have a red serge example with label stating "cavalry, red FK" without chains and it has a red collar as the body of the frock. I presume it to have been intended for one or more of the Dragoon Guards regiments, but which ones?

CB

[Graham Stewart]

You'll have to take a photo of your frock coat and try and post it to give us a better idea of what it looks like. Going back to those Yeomanry books mentioned in my last post it would appear that their were at least 10 in the series, all containing coloured and b&w period illustrations.

I've also been racking my brains as to where you'd find other illustrations and the only thing I can think of, where the cavalry featured was a magazine produced in the 1890's called the "Navy & Army Illustrated". The photographic illustrations in it are superb for the period, but as you can guess it would be easier to come across rocking horse sh*t, than copies of this magazine, which ran to a few volumes. The last bound volume set I came across retailed at over a £1,000.

[TS Allen]

I have an example in my collection, all red with pointed dark-blue tabs, rounded epaulettes and plan red, pointed cuffs. It has a white blanket-cloth lining, and the typical lacquered metal closure tabs found on Edwardian uniforms. The items is hemmed throughout. The breast pockets have pointed flaps and hidden billows to the outer side, while the lower pockets have no buttons and are in fact sewn shut, in what appears to be an original addition to the tunic. Interestingly, the uniform has no belt ramps, although all brass General service buttons are present on my example and appear original.

The label in mine, which was mercifully removed and mounted on acid-free paper by the previous owner, dates it uniform to "JUN 1913" manufactured at the "ROYAL ARMY CLOTHING FACTORY" for the "DP 1.DRAGOONS.FK." First Dragoon Guards, right?

If you're wondering wear to find pictures of this pattern of uniform, you actually don't have far to look. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police pattern is basically identical, and may be identical, although the RCMP uniform predates this type.

Immediately after I bought this example, I did a far amount of research and found numerous pictures. I can look around and see what I still have.

TTFN,

~TS

[cbuehler]

Thanks all!

TS, this is the exact type I was referring to. Yours is marked to the the regiment (it may be the 1st Royal Dragoons and not the 1st DG) and they used dark blue tabs. Mine is the same, but with plain collar. I now believe it to possibly be for the 3rd Dragoon Gds. ? I had thought that perhaps these frocks were issued without tabs and they were subsequently added by regiments that used them, but it now looks like they were produced specifically for the regiments.

CB

[leigh kitchen]

One I have:

Its paper label is dated 1900, "Cavalry Red Tn F" (remainder of word torn off, possibly "Frock"?)

It has Victorian GS buttons, & has not had any metal insignia although I can't make up my mind about cloth - I can't decide whether it's had none at all or things such as inverted chevrons above drum on the right lower sleeve.

It's probably best to say that it's had no insignia attached - other than the black or dark bluecollar tabs, which are tacked on around their edges.

It's looks like it's had a leather stock tab which has now gone, leaving just a trace of patent leather laquer.

The laquered fabric pocket & label inside the front skirts are devoid of printing or writing.

I wondered if it might be a dragoon regiments tunic. There does'nt appear to be anything on the label to indicate that it's not British, but wondering if it was a RCMP tunic I checked with some Canadian Mounties some years ago, describing this to them, in case it was an old RCMP tunic, but that was non-conclusive.The black or blue collar tabs seem to echo the shaped tabs of the RCMP, but they're not shaped to fit the collar, just fairly roughly applied bits of woven cloth or wide ribbon as if by the man himself. There are no indications of metal insignia having been applied.

It may have had some connection to the guards as believe it came to me via auction from a person connected to The Guards Museum.

Past discussion of this item has drawn the opinion that it's a Mounties tunic.

Edited January 23, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

The inside:

[TS Allen]

Leigh,

It's identical in pattern to mine, which as I noted above, has a paper label for the 1st Dragoon Guards. The only difference is that mine has better-attached, longer, fitted collar patches.

I think these are similar to the RCMP uniform, possibly because what the RCMP wears is derivative of it, but these particular uniforms are the British pattern. The RCMP uniform has pockets that have multiple points and a few other differences. Also important, the RCMP have a distinctive pattern of buttons. I saw an RCMP uniform from the period for sale via an auction about six months ago (it ended up going for a very low price because it was a US and not a Canadian auction) and the pattern was different.

One question remains: What are these? They definitely aren't a dress uniform, but they are red and were still being produced on the eve of WWI. A final-pattern red field uniform? Why did they need one?

TTFN,

~TS

[Graham Stewart]

The infantry had two types of scarlet one being for "best" or review order, while the frock coat, which was of a different pattern was for general everyday wear. Perhaps the cavalry was no different in this respect?

[TS Allen]

Ah. I always thought that the frock was done away with after the introduction of the brown field uniform. That explains it, though.

TTFN,

~TS