Stump the Stars?

[W McSwiggan]

O?Connor asserts in Volume II that four enlisted members of the German Armed Forces were awarded both the Member?s Cross of the Royal Hohenzollern House Order and the (Golden) Military Merit Cross from Prussia. Two ? the aviators in this exclusive club were identified ? Thom & Ophaus. Thom went on to earn the Pour le M?rite and his story is well known. Ophaus ? a Schlacht pilot is less known but his story is recorded in volume II.

Here it comes! Who were the other two? They were members of the ground forces and are unknown to me. Can anyone here identify these soldiers and/or outline their careers and awards?

[Guest Darrell]

*Thinks Ricky is down in the depths of the Dungeon blowing dust off the covers of the Holy Bibles in searh of the facts*

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Here are the named holders of the Inhabercross:

1) Offiziersstellvertreter Fritz Kosmahl (Pilot - awarded : 09.01.1917)

2) Vizefeldwebel Sebastian Festner (Pilot - awarded : 23.04.1917)

3) Vizefeldwebel Lindner (IR 51 - awarded : 13.05.1917)

4) Unteroffizier Farys (G.R. 10 - awarded : 13.05.1917)

5) Vizefeldwebel Schleiffer (Pilot - awarded : 30.05.1917)

6) Offiziersstellvertreter Max M?ller (Pilot - awarded : 14.07.1917)

7) Offiziersstellvertreter Basch (Pilot - awarded : 03.08.1917)

8) Vizefeldwebel Tillmann (Pilot - awarded : 23.08.1917)

9) Offiziersstellvertreter Krause (Pilot - awarded : 30.08.1917)

10) Offiziersstellvertreter J?nger (Pilot - awarded : 16.10.1917)

11) Vizefeldwebel Lieschke (I.R. 20 - awarded : 30.06.1918)

12) Offiziersstellvertreter Karl Thom (Pilot - awarded : 07.08.1918)

13) Vizefeldwebel Fr?mmel (I.R. 81 - awarded : 03.10.1918)

14) Vizefeldwebel F-J. Ophaus (Pilot - awarded : 03.10.1918)

15) Vizefeldwebel Ackermann (I.R. 66 - awarded : 25.10.1918)

16) Vizefeldwebel Tr?ger ( I.R. 466 - awarded : 06.11.1918)

Now lets get the ground people out of the list and the 2 mentioned persons by you should be in here:

A) Vizefeldwebel Lindner (IR 51 - awarded : 13.05.1917)

B) Unteroffizier Farys (G.R. 10 - awarded : 13.05.1917)

C) Vizefeldwebel Lieschke (I.R. 20 - awarded : 30.06.1918)

D) Vizefeldwebel Fr?mmel (I.R. 81 - awarded : 03.10.1918)

E) Vizefeldwebel Ackermann (I.R. 66 - awarded : 25.10.1918)

F) Vizefeldwebel Tr?ger ( I.R. 466 - awarded : 06.11.1918)

Cordial greetings,

[Guest Rick Research]

All things are knowable to The Ancient Ones with the books because lucky for us the complete total numbers and identities of ALL the recipients are known and have been in print since between the World Wars, when associations for these holders flourished:

C) Vizefeldwebel Lieschke (I.R. 20 - awarded : 30.06.1918)

Otto Lieschke won the 45th GMMC of the war on 28.11.17 as Vzf in IR 20

E) Vizefeldwebel Ackermann (I.R. 66 - awarded : 25.10.1918)

Otto Ackermann won the 187th GMMC of the war on 21.4.18 as Vzf in IR 66

So there.

[Guest Rick Research]

Just as a matter of identifying award groups, ribbon bars etc here are the DEATH DATES on these that I can come up with:

K.I.A. = Killed In Action

D.O.W. = Died Of Wounds

not killed, but P.O.W. = Prisoner Of War

1) Offiziersstellvertreter Fritz Kosmahl (Pilot - awarded : 09.01.1917) D.O.W. 26.9.17

2) Vizefeldwebel Sebastian Festner (Pilot - awarded : 23.04.1917) K.I.A. 23.4.17

3) Vizefeldwebel Lindner (IR 51 - awarded : 13.05.1917)

4) Unteroffizier Farys (G.R. 10 - awarded : 13.05.1917)

5) Vizefeldwebel Josef Schleiffer (Pilot - awarded : 30.05.1917) (P.O.W. 1.9.17)

6) Offiziersstellvertreter Max M?ller (Pilot - awarded : 14.07.1917) K.I.A. 6.1.18

7) Offiziersstellvertreter Hans Basch (Pilot - awarded : 03.08.1917)

8) Vizefeldwebel Julius Tillmanns (Pilot - awarded : 23.08.1917) P.O.W. 18.9.18

9) Offiziersstellvertreter (Unknown!) Krause (Pilot - awarded : 30.08.1917)

10) Offiziersstellvertreter Albert J?nger (Pilot - awarded : 16.10.1917)

11) Vizefeldwebel Otto Lieschke (I.R. 20 - awarded : 30.06.1918)

12) Offiziersstellvertreter Karl Thom (Pilot - awarded : 07.08.1918)

13) Vizefeldwebel Fr?mmel (I.R. 81 - awarded : 03.10.1918)

14) Vizefeldwebel Franz-Joseph Ophaus (Pilot - awarded : 03.10.1918)

15) Vizefeldwebel Otto Ackermann (I.R. 66 - awarded : 25.10.1918)

16) Vizefeldwebel Tr?ger ( I.R. 466 - awarded : 06.11.1918)

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Thank you Rick for the additional info

Here is some more additional info, the following pilots did score the following number of kills:

M?ller : 36

Thom : 27

Festner : 12

Kosmahl : 9

Ophaus : 4

My info (including who did earn these awards, etc .. ) is found in the older artcile written by Daniel Krause and was published in the BDOS Magazine nr.4 / December 1999

Cordial greetings,

Edited April 6, 2006 by Stijn David

[W McSwiggan]

Well - the stars have come through again - ya gotta be impressed!

Thanks all - great information.

[Guest Darrell]

Well - the stars have come through again - ya gotta be impressed!

Thanks all - great information.

So what's the prize?

[W McSwiggan]

Drum roll please - your prize is...

another question!

We know about the aviators thanks to Neal O'Connor. Max Muller & Thom held significant distinctions as winners ot the Pour le Merite & other neat stuff on the part of Max.

Any of the 5 grunts get other high recognition beyond the member's cross and GMVK as noted?

So what's the prize?

[Magnusmilitaria]

Dear Sir!

I get pilot badge of the pilot Vizefeldwebel Josef Schleiffer and I would like to get some more information about this pilot photos,informations,...

Thank you in advance!

Best Regards

Mark