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Military General Service Medals to King's German Legion

Napoleonic Wars

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#1 Rick Research

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 15:55

I have been mulling over a project-- since Daniel has no WW1 award rolls for me to type rolleyes.gif at the moment-- of producing a computerized Master List of KGL Medals, documenting what collections and sales they came out of for a "genealogy" of provenances/attributions. From some of the other medals seen here at GMIC, can do that back to the 1870s. Cat Scratch.gif That might help reunite split pairs et cetera by knowing what actually still IS Out There. I have a feeling that the numbers ISSUED at the end of the 1840s are not at all close to the fraction REMAINING IN EXISTENCE TODAY.

If anyone has sales catalogs from WHENEVER showing any, please post the medal details including catalog date, item number, and sale price here. Actual scans of the pages would be best. I will add them to my accumulating Master List and when it is large enough, will post it here at GMIC. I am always stunned to read that 17--or 3-- of any specific battle bars were issued to surviving veterans of a unit... 160 years ago. But how many STILL EXIST?

Herr Finkam stated in 1901 that there had only been a total of 1,230 issued TOTAL... so how many HUNDREDS survive? catjava.gif

#2 Ralph

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 17:31

Hi Rick,

If you have not seen it check this out - Collection of KGL Medals sold in 2003


http://www.dnw.co.uk...e...9&action=Go

#3 Rick Research

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 17:43

I never paid any attention to 'em until the Traveling Museum Collective and you got my attention. rolleyes.gif

I don't "link" well since apparently most (haven't tried this one) formats used by online dealers do not "read" on my computer and cause technical problems I've learned to live without.

This is the sort of thing I'm working on:

Attached File  MGS_sample_KGL_sales_catalogs_alpha_20.JPG   87.73KB   22 downloads

#4 Ralph

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 17:59

Have noted Follwing :

Gaskell Collection, Auction Glendining's May 1911
C. Sprenger 1st Line Batt. K.G.L.
Clasps Albuhera; Salamanca; Vittoria; St. Sebastian; Nivelle, Nive

In the Dr. A.A Payne Collection, (1911) following medals recorded:

G.Meyer, Cort. 3rd Hussars K.G.L. (Later Lt. Genl George Meyer)
Clasp Sahagun and Benevente

J.J. Beyer Surgn. Brunsk. Oels Lt. Infy.
Clasps Corunna, Albuhera

Rudolphus Pringle, Capt. 2nd Lt. Bn. K.G.L.
Clasps Albuhera, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian

C. Schlaeger, Bombr, Arty & Lieut. 5th Line Bn. K.G.L. (Later Major Charles Schlaeger K.H.)
Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Salamnca, Vittoria

L.S. Schulz, Cornet 1st HUssars, K.G.L. (later Lieut. Leopold Sigismond Schulz)
Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria, Toulouse

Wilhelm Bergmann, 2nd Lt. Btn, K.G.L.
Claps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

He also had Anton Bartel's 10 Clasp MGS but you have details on that already

#5 Rick Research

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 18:02

Link worked well-- I did a copy paste of the text and will add that to my Master List, then go back and fill in the missing data that doesn't show on the auction page. Thanks Ralph! cheers.gif



Cat Scratch.gif Hey! There's Surgeon Beyer

http://gmic.co.uk/in...showtopic=37076

from the Payne Collection 1911!!! jumping.gif jumping.gif jumping.gif jumping.gif

#6 Les

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 20:51

QUOTE (Rick Research @ Jun 25 2009, 11:55 ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have been mulling over a project-- since Daniel has no WW1 award rolls for me to type rolleyes.gif at the moment-- of producing a computerized Master List of KGL Medals, documenting what collections and sales they came out of for a "genealogy" of provenances/attributions. From some of the other medals seen here at GMIC, can do that back to the 1870s. Cat Scratch.gif That might help reunite split pairs et cetera by knowing what actually still IS Out There. I have a feeling that the numbers ISSUED at the end of the 1840s are not at all close to the fraction REMAINING IN EXISTENCE TODAY.

If anyone has sales catalogs from WHENEVER showing any, please post the medal details including catalog date, item number, and sale price here. Actual scans of the pages would be best. I will add them to my accumulating Master List and when it is large enough, will post it here at GMIC. I am always stunned to read that 17--or 3-- of any specific battle bars were issued to surviving veterans of a unit... 160 years ago. But how many STILL EXIST?

Herr Finkam stated in 1901 that there had only been a total of 1,230 issued TOTAL... so how many HUNDREDS survive? catjava.gif



Rick,

That figure may only be off more than a tad.

The Waterloo medal was supposed to be awarded to every soldier who fought at Waterloo -and- Ligny. That would mean each KGL member who served at Waterloo was eligible for at least -one- medal. The KGL was a fairly large organization, and for Waterloo alone, there would be a large number of names (and theoretically a medal or bar for each of them). The Waterloo medal roll (which should include those who fought at Ligny, Quatre Bras also) might be a good to look over, and to think over the direction of the project.

Les

Edited by Les, 25 June 2009 - 21:01 .


#7 Rick Research

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 20:58

Not doing Waterloo Medals, unless mentioned as being in groups with MGS Medals, or loose ones to officers issued MGS Medals that have gone astray in split groups.

Aside from that, ONLY doing MGS Medals-- issued to survivors at the end of the 1840s.

Somebody else can do loose Waterloos to dead guys and other ranks! cheeky.gif

Right now, thanks to Ralph's help, have 17 of the 134 MGS Medals to KGL OFFICERS, which is a darned nice percentage for not much sweat so far.

#8 Les

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 22:30

QUOTE (Rick Research @ Jun 25 2009, 16:58 ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not doing Waterloo Medals, unless mentioned as being in groups with MGS Medals, or loose ones to officers issued MGS Medals that have gone astray in split groups.



Ok. You were commenting on KGL medals, but didn't say it would be limited to MGS relateld groups or awards. In case you're (or anyone else for that matter is) interested, Beamish's history of the KGL is on-line, at "google books" and can be downloaded for free. Might be of interest from time to time perhaps?

http://books.google....lient=firefox-a

Les

Edited by Les, 25 June 2009 - 22:32 .


#9 Ralph

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 12:22

Some More


F.Degen, 5th Line Bn. KGL 4 Clasps Talavera, Busaco,Ciudad Rodrigo,Salamnca

Glendining?s 22 May 1963 ?20.00

Hermann Ottens 2nd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Barossa

Glendining?s 17 Apr 1964 ?8.10/-

Justus Bode 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Sahagun

Glendining?s 17 Apr 1964 ?4.10/-

Ludolph Holzhausen 5th Line Bn. KGL 7 Clasps Talavera,Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria, Nivelle, Nive

Glendining?s 25 Nov 1987 ?330

L. Wuster, Sjt. 2nd Lt. Dgns. KGL 3 Clasps Salamanca, Vittoria, Toulouse + Waterloo Medal

Sotheby?s 27 Jul 1979

Christopher Schulz 5th Line Bn KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

Sotheby?s 21 Mar 1979

Christian Ellperoth 1st Hussars KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, Pyrenees,Nivelle, Orthes

Glendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?60.00

J.Riebert 2nd Lt. Dgns. KGL 1 Clasp Barossa

Glendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?30.00 also Glendining?s 25 Sep 1961 ?19.00

Henry Rahrig 1st Lt. Bn. KGL 6 Clasps Albuhera, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

Glendning?s 22 Oct 1970 ?36.00

Heinrich Bernack 2nd Lt Bn KGL 4 Clasps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian

Glendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?29.00

Christian Kemmena 2nd Line Bt. KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuente D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

Glendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?35.00

E.C. Roderwald 1st Hussars KGL 4 Clasps Talavera, Salamanca, Vittoria, Toulouse

Sotheby?s 28 Feb 1985 ?180

Herman Orthens 2nd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Barossa

Glendining?s 17 Mar 1982

H. Hillman 1st Lt. Bn KGL 1 Clasp Albuhera + Waterloo Medal

Glendining?s 30 Jun 1982

Eckhard Bohne 2nd Lt. Bn KGL 4 Clasps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian

Glendining?s 6 Oct 1982

Ludolph Benning, Corp. 2nd Line BN. KGL 8 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

J.J. Beyer clasps Vittoria

Glendinings 29 Feb 1984 ?140, again Glendinings 28 Nov 1984 ?160

P. Lerchenfeld 2nd Line Bn. KGL 6 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamnca, Vittoria

Glendining?s 24 June 1981

Otti Leonhardt, Sjt, 2nd Line Bn KGL [ex Robert Gould Collection] 8 Clasps Talavera, Busaco Ciudad Rodrigo , Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

Glendinings 27 Mar 1985 ?330

 

 

 



#10 Ulsterman

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 14:27

Les:
FYI, the Waterloo medal was SUPPOSED to be for everyone at the battle, but there were a number of individuals and even a few units that were denied the medal for cowardice etc. etc..

MGS 9 clasps: Christopher Schultz, 5th Line Btn.: Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes, Ciudad, Salamanca,vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive: 310 pounds: Sothebys' March 21, 1974 ("property of a gentleman").


many, many more to add to the list.



Cat Scratch.gif Cat Scratch.gif Cat Scratch.gif Hold On-are we doing officers only?

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#11 Rick Research

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 16:20

MGS Medals to anyone KGL. In groups or split from groups. In the event that say a Waterloo is known for an MGS holder but the MGS is not located, WILL include those since one purpose would be to reunite sundered pairs/groups.

But if they did not get an MGS, not interested. That must be my focus to be manageable. cheers.gif

Interesting to see some "repeat customers" names on your latest additions. All grist for the provenance history mill, being able to follow a chain of possession for the last 150 years on into the next.

If these medals are mentioned as being from a named person's collection, please include that so can list "The XYZ Collection" rather than simply "ABC Sale."

How many medals CAN we do this for, like this? Victoria Crosses, maybe?

#12 Ralph

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 18:07

Some More

The following are all from the "Ambrose Elson" Collection, sold by Glendining?s 25 Sep 1963

 

Martin Kestner 2nd Lt. Bn. KGL clasps Talavera,Busaco,Fuentes D?Omor, Salamanca, Vittoria

.St. Sebastian,Nivelle.Nive ?68.00

Gabriel Leunig 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Sahagun and Benevente + Waterloo ?34.00

G.F. Paschal Lieut. 2nd Line Bn. KGL, 2 Clasps Nivelle, Nive + Waterloo + Medal for Bravery ?38.00

Godfrey Tronier 1st Lt. Dgns, KGL 3 Clasps Salamanca, Vittoria, Toulouse, + Waterloo+ Hanoverian Service medal for 16 years ?56.00

Joseph Baumann 5th Line Bn. KGL, 9 Clasps Talavera,Busaco,Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca,Vittoria, St. Sebastian,,Nivelle,Nive + Waterloo ?60.00

Henry Thiele 1st Hussars, KGL 10 Clasps Talvera,Busaco,Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, Pyrenees,,Nivelle,Orthes, Toulouse + Waterloo (Named Henry Thieb) + Guelphic Medal (Named Heinr. Thiele, Cpl 1 Hussars Rgt.) ?120.00

The following have no Identifiable Vendor:

F.Delen 5 Line Bn. KGL 4 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca

Glendining?s 22 May 1963 ?21.00

Fredk. Hoper 1st Line Bn KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco,Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

Glendining?s 16 Nov 1964 ?70.00

Col. Sjt. Christian Weiss 2nd lt, Bn KGL 6 Clasps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive + Waterloo + Guelphic Silver medal for Bravery + KGL Volunteer medal

Sotheby?s 12 Apr 1978

G. Schlaeger Bombr.Arty & Lt. 5th Line Bn, KGL 5 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria,

Sotheby?s 18 Feb 1970



#13 Rick Research

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 18:55

Cat Scratch.gif Good Lord! there are MORE "familiar names" AGAIN!!! Why, there's our very own GMIC-posted PASCHAL for instance!

jumping.gif jumping.gif jumping.gif


How many LIVES have been connected with these lumps of metal and silk? Mega philosophical ponderings!!! cheers.gif

#14 Rick Research

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 22:37

Here's an interesting set of statistics so far:

Out of 70 MGS Medals to KGL members now on my increasing Master List--


14 are documented on 2 sales
6 on 3 sales
1 on 4 sales
and
1 on 5 sales in the last 137 years.


Quite a few were singles when first offered that were cheers.gif reunited as pairs. Obviously, this is a very VERY small collecting world and the same items keep circulating around and around in a very few collections. Another oddity is that quite a few Guelphic Medals have disappeared-- I suspect the German "German" collectors of the past pulled them out and saved those, while the British "British" collectors pulled out the MGSs and Waterloos. Both were morons for breaking groups to collect fragments, but at least SOME of our collecting brethren succeeded in reuniting split groups-- one after more than 50 years apart.

#15 Ralph

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 14:18

Some more ( including some familiar names)

Heinrich Behrens 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Sahagun & Benevente

J.B. Hayward Medal Sales List June 1975 ?175.00

Heinrich Wunderlich 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Sahagun & Benevente

J.B. Hayward Medal Sales List June 1975 ?175.00

Christian Schussler, Gunner, Arty. KGL 10 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Albuhera, Badajoz, Salamanca, Vittoria, Pyrenees, St. Sebastian, Orthes, Toulouse

Sotheby?s 30 June 1983 ?380, also in London Stamp Exchange List September 1983.

Martin Kestner, 2nd Lt. BN KGL * Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria,

St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

Sothebys 4 Mar 1982 ?280 and again Sotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?380

Christian Metje Corpl. 2nd Hussars, KGL 1 Clasp Barossa

Sotheby?s 30 June 1983 ?180

C.Dalling, Vety. Surgn 3rd & 2nd Lt. Dgns, KGL 3 Clasps, Sahagun & Benevente, Orthes, Toulouse

Sotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?280

Friedrich Trumper 1st Line Bn. KGL 8 Clasps Talavera, Barossa, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, Nivelle, Nive

Christies 23 Feb 1982 (est ?260/?300), Sotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?340

Ludolph Bening, Corpl. 2nd Line Bn. KGL 8 clasps (listed in a previous post)

Sotheby?s 30 June 1983 ?320

Christian Brandt 1st Line Bn. KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive

Sotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?380

Frederick Langwertz, Gunner ,Ary. KGL 6 Clasps Busaco, Albuhera, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, St. Sebastian, Toulouse

Christie?s 20 Nov 1984 ?170



#16 Rick Research

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 15:05

There seems to have been something going on with prices-- doubled from 1960s to 1970s and again 1970s to 1980s.

Reality setting in-- or currency devaluation?

These were apparently never cheap, but prices seem to have held steady--in relative terms-- from the 1930s to 1960s, from very bad times to (ah the warm glow of nostalgia) very good ones. Somewhere along the way a week's pay became the price of a new used car. rolleyes.gif

I don't have any of the British Official Annual Price Guides after the early 1980s, but they were still, then (behind the curve) actually dismissive of KGL MGSs.


Another statistical anomaly I've noted so far is a quite disproportionate survival of "Pyrenees" bars to members of the 4. Fu?batterie and Lt. Cordemann's squadron of the 1st Hussars. They were either blessed with some sort of divine group-favor or... I don't know what. Out of the 70 Medals I had listed by last night, 3 of each of these 2 companies. Now Schussler adds another to the artillery battery. Obviously 70+ out of 1,230 is not statistically significant--yet--but 7 out of 70-odd extant and "in commerce" sure is. One wonders unsure.gif if there was some sort of "Indiana Jones incident" at the holy well of the Blessed Somebodyorother....


cheers.gif

#17 Ulsterman

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 11:49

Jeff Floyd has sold a fair few of these over the years. I'll leave him to put these on (unless he'd like me to).
There's a lovely 9 bar MGS in the Fitzwilliam museum in Cambridge, purchased by Watson @ 1920.
Heinrich Muhlert:

http://www.fitzmuseu...on/page226.html

#18 Rick Research

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 01:19

I am happy to report that I have been lent a 1990 "Mullen" and am busily transcribing all MGSs to members of the KGL with that as the total lsiting. Finished with the cavalry and moving into infantry and...


it is EXTREMELY alarming indeed.

"Numbers issued" as I suspected (my only real reason for doing this, since I'll naver HAVE one myself-- you MAY contact the Vatican about my beatification) seems to have NO refelction on the grim reality that the same VERY few medals have been traded around over and over again for the last century.

Granted, Mullen is Brito-centric, with NO reports from German sales... but as the astonishing 1932 Hanover auction catalogs in Eric Ludvigsen's Nachlass reveal... even the "German" ones all seem to gravitate to England.

So please continue to report in any and all sales from old catalogs, particularly after Mullen's 1990 publication date.

I have not been this stunned since working on Lippe-Detmold's award rolls and seen the volume of returns.


It might be well worth somebody's while to do what I'm doing with the KGL for their very favorite British regiment's or Corps' MGS and track what is ACTUALLY OUT THERE.

On a happier note, I have seen many a split group patiently reunited sometimes decades apart. Good job, those men! :beer:

#19 Ulsterman

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 02:10

what's a "Mullen"?

#20 Ralph

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 07:15

I would treat the Mullen roll with caution in regards to the KGL entries - If you compare my copies of the roll at the National Archives you will see quite a few discrepancies:

e.g. Meyer Conrad - on the mauscript roll he has clasps Vitorria,Pyrenees,Nivelle,Orthes.Toulouse - Mullen mentions he has 9 clasps

Muller Henry - There is a 9 Clasp recipient on the roll and in his boook but he fails to mention the MUller Henry 3 clasps who is on the roll but not in his book.

Muller, Hermann - 6 clasps on the roll, 3 mentioned in his book

Meyer Freidrich Cpl, on the roll as 10 clasps in his book as 9 clasps

there is another Meyer, Friedrich, Cpl on the roll with 3 clasps but does not appear in his book

(and I only pulled up the one page on the roll!!)

Ralph

(P.s. in repsonse to the previous query Mullen compiled a roll of the recipients of the Military General Service Medal)

Edited by Ralph, 04 August 2009 - 09:25 .






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