Nick Charman

October 29, 2012

Agreed Mervyn -- very pleasing to see the newly added detail --- regret from my point of view I have nothing constructive to add -- but hope this does not "die"

Thank you Gentlemen for your continued interest

Nick Charman

February 3, 2010

Nick The best reference I can suggest is The Royal Irish Constabulary by Jim Herlihy, pub 1997 in Dublin by Four Courts Press, ISBN 1 -851182- 343-3,which has an extensive bibliography and should set you off on the right track - 1314

Thank you very much for the prompt reply -- I will now get myself a copy -- and hope I will be able to get further information regarding my fathers service with the RIC. --- Nick

February 2, 2010

Nick
Sorry to do things piecemeal and moving from HK somewhat
I note AEC also served in the Royal Irish Constabulary as a Sergeant No 70290 and was wounded in action at Tooreengarriv (?), County Cork on the 28.1.1921. He certainly saw his share of action in a variety of theatres ! - 1314

To 1314

I do apologise for the length of time it has taken me to make a reply.

I thank you for your reference above to the RIC & AEC -- I regret my father never ever spoke about Ireland to me ( only how he loved the place and the people ) -- however once my Mother did say something about 3 major incidents -- all being ambushes -- and my father being wounded ( I thought twice ) --- these ambushes involved the deaths of very senior RIC Commanders -- and one My Father being the only Police Officer left alive ( although wounded ) --- I do not think she had any idea of areas or locations.

I recently went to KEW to see what records they held on the RIC and was very dissappionted that they held almost nothing -- just name rank number Dob and religion.

I would be very pleased to know if you could supply any further information -- regarding archives I could visit to gather any other information about him --- you are right he really did get about.

Again my thanks

Nick Charman

January 23, 2010

Mervyn
I served in the NRP and the HKP/RHKP.
The Crown Sergeants referred to by Nick were principally Water Police ( Marine Police after 1947) and in charge of cruising launches and remote stations.All long in the tooth and mostly ex servicemen,they were not in the promotion stream and were generally hard cases.A post war re-organization did away with them and promoted all European Sergeants and Lance Sergeants to the Inspectorate and new entrants came in as Probationary Sub-Inspectors,(Probationery Inspectors post 1960) who sported one pip.
Those officers to which you refer in your note to Nick were the Staff Sergeants,Grades 1 and Two,who wore a red sash over the right shoulder and either a plain crown or a wreathed crown dependant on grade.In the early 1970s these ranks were abolished and replaced by that of Station Sergeant,who wore the arms of HK surrounded by a wreath.
Several of the Grade 1 Staff Sgts were promoted to the Inspectorate in a Captain/Quartermaster scheme until they retired.
If Nick is fortunate he may have his fathers collar numerals, A 137,his cap badge - a white metal crown and shoulder titles w/m HKP, plus w/m buttons and crowned chevrons,regretably I cannot post illustrations.

Nick
I have certain amount of personal data AEC which you may be interested in.If you wish to read all about the Anti-Piracy Guards please see " Sui Geng The HK Marine Police 1841 - 1941" by Iain Ward,HKU press 1991 ISBN 962 - 209 286 1,in which his photo appears along with his 14 man squad of Russians,I have their details. Regards - 1314

Nick to 1314 -- Yes 1314 I have seen today and replied today -- although I can't see my reply -- which was, I hope a direct PM sent just before lunch.

January 23, 2010

Hi - welcome to GMIC. I made general enquiries about the early HK Police some years ago when I lived in the Far East and was told by Force HQ that the archives had been destroyed. I think a lot of us would be interested in some of this history if you have access. Mervyn

Mervyn

We now know that 1314 is "the Man" -- Nick

January 23, 2010

Hi - 1314 - that is comprehensive info. of the first order. Nick is very fortunate. Are you ex-HK Police - they were a very fine Force in the true background of our Colonial Service Police. The British South Africa Police in Rhodesia were always held up as being the top one - but, to my mind they were both fine units with exceptional standards. I was actually considering joining the HKP in the 1960's - but decided on the Met. since we started it all...

Nick - you're older than I am !!! Would be interesting to see some of your Father's early equipment and paperwork. The rank of stripes - surmounted by a Crown , was originally a Station Sergeant. The Sgt. who actually ran the Police Station. I think it was in 1970 that the rank was abolished and all holders were promoted to Inspector. I suppose the nearest Army equivalent would be a CSM - certainly, you treated them with respect - they were mostly older service police officers.

Mervyn -- yes "Sir" I am indeed very fortunate -- I did not think there was the slightest chance of finding out anything at all -- so it beggers the question -- why on earth did I post it

You are of course right about how young I am --- I regret however My father did not keep any of his HKP "stuff" at all -- knowing him he would have handed it all back to stores -- and kept the receipt !

I thank you very much for your thoughts

Kindest regards,

Nick Charman

January 23, 2010

Arthur Ernest CHARMAN
Born 12.3.1892
Enlisted in Hong Kong Police on 3.5.1924
At this time expat entrants joined as Police Constables until they had satisfactorily completed their training whereupon they were advanced to Lance Sergeant,subject to satisfactory duty performance and passing examinations they were later promoted to Police Sergeant.Possible promotion to Crown Sergeant and th Inspectorate could follow.
As AEC came direct from the RIC and was relatively old it is possible he enlisted as a Police Sergeant,particularly if he had specialist qualifications.He was allocated the Service Number A.137,the letter A denoting a member of the Expat contingent,Indians were B,Cantonese C,Northern Chinese (Shantung/Wei Hei Wei men) were D and the Russians E. A Crown Sergeant would be the officer in charge of a Marine Police (then known as Water Police) launch,or,as in the photo you quote,the Anti Piracy unit on board a China Coaster.
He appears in a Photograph dated 1935 as a Sgt at No 2 Police Station (Wanchai) at the retirement on an Inspector McLellan and also in Correspondence in the series 5/104 held by the Curator,Force Museum.I believe he died in Hampshire on 24.3.1969 and would welcome confirmation.
The best (only) book on the early history of the Force (tho it does not contain any reference to AEC) is " The RHKP - 1841-1945 " by Crisswell and Watson, Pub by MacMillan Publishing in 182, ISBN 962 - 03 -01977 -8,which should be available through your local library service,or thro Internet Book Sellers.
If I can help further please let me have a PM .

To 1314

This reply ( albeit not as quickly as your response is entitled to /and or deserves ) is sent with my very very sincere thanks. As Mervyn quite rightly says in his reply " Nick is very fortunate indeed".

Everything in your reply is one hundred percent accurate. that is everything I had any knowledge of -- which was only his DoB and DoD

1314 you have been so thorough it seems cherlish to ask this -- but if you allow me may I query the"China Coaster" -- the picture I was referring to was on dry land ( matbe a parade ground of sorts -- and guard to the Empress of Canada.

I have already ordered the book.

and will try to contact the Curator and view 5/104.

Again my thanks -- I do truly appreciate your efforts on my behalf

Nick Charman

January 21, 2010

I am able to provide the service details of a large number of men who served in the HKP from 1844 until 1969,and the RHKP from 1969 to 1997. 1314

Firstly may I thank you for both your replies:-

My father joined the Hong Kong Police Force ( when pensioned off from the Royal Irish Constabulary, when Southern Ireland became a Repulic ) and was invalided out in 1935/36

His name was Arthur Ernest Charman and he wore a crown over three stripes ( if he had that rank in the Army -- I think he would be called a staff sargeant -- but in the HKPF I think he was called a Crown Sargeant ?)

My understanding is that he joined at that rank ( as there was no lower rank for an englishman ) at that time.

There is a photogragh in the entrance hall of the HKPF museum -- showing him as the "commander" and or "i.c." of the first anti piracy guard -- which was made up of white Russains and Indians -- its also a postcard in the museum souvenir pack of postcards.

More than that I do not know any more regarding his service there -- I was born in Hong Kong in 1931.

If you are able to find more information -- I would be very grateful.

My thanks -- and kindest regards,

Nick Arthur Mold Charman ( I was christened Nick -- was allowed in HK -- but not in England at that time -- have not meet any other Nicks to date )

January 19, 2010

Can I ask if anyone has any information regarding online records for the HKPF prior to 1941 -- do in fact any records exsist -- my understanding is that records in Hong Kong were destroyed by the Japanese -- and is it correct to say there is almost nothing held for that period of time in this country ?

January 16, 2010

Hi,

Do you know what he did at Verdun? Is it possible that there is an error here? With the MC, DCM, MM and Croix de Guerre he seems to have been a very busy man indeed... I would love to have met someone who saw that much action!

Is it possible that he recieved it on the Somme or Flanders? Or even the Chemain des Dames and that as his history has been passed on to Children, then grandchildren a bit of confusion has crept in? I am only 15 years out of the army, saw a fraction of what he did and already I am not 100% sure of all the details... ask me when I am 60 and I will really have trouble remembering what happened where etc.

I ask because I read a lot about Verdun and have until now never seen an English connection. If he was attached to the French there... then in what capacity?

Best
Chris

Hi Chris

I am not accomplished in many things, and one is the use of this site --- I did make a reply to you yesterday, and pressed the wrong button -- and

can't find it, or any trace of it. However my answer went something like this :-

1) Memory and detailed remembering -- yes you are very right -- you did also miss out on the word embelish -- which can also creep in.

2) I am in my 79th year -- and regret that in fact my Father and I never talk to each other about WW1 or WW2 directly -- or about his history. My recollections come from being allowed to be with him when his Pals came to visit -- and talk to each other about "times passed". They were two sjts in the Battalion -- but to do with supply -- I think you will find that most of the front line men that jioned up with him in August 1914 did not make it. ( both were Town Clerks one in Hackney and one in Camberwell ) --- they talked of allsorts of things but very little about actual warfare.

3) I can remember talk of listening posts -- night patrols -- and a Brigidier that had an artificual leg that skweeked at night -- and three "actions" that stick in my mind 1) a landing from Royal Navy warships on the Belgium coast near Zebrugge -- they were rowed ashore in either cutters or actual lifeboats 2) Verdun -- my farther had a section / and or Platoon that were called "bombers" my understanding was their primary offensive weapon was the hand grenade( and they either had a strong right arm / or unless I am making this up -- a device to launch same ?? ) now I don't know of course what or if at all there are or were sewers in or under Verdun ( and what harm to the srtucture HG's would have cuased if used in that sort of space -- but it was for helping at Verdun that my memory says My Father was awarded his CdG ---- I hope this is not pure fantasy on my part --- but thats how I remember it ----- the third action I would only speak, of not put in writing.

4) You said you would like to have meet him -- yes. After ww1 he joined the Royal Irish Constabulary ( NOT A BLACK & TAN ) and was wounded twice before being pensioned off when the Republic was founded ( 3&sixpence a week for life - but increased with the cost of living ? ) -- He then joined the Honk Kong Police -- and formed the first anti piracy guard ( "white Russans & Indians (no not red ) ) -- if you enter the Hong Kong Police

Museum in the entrance hall you will see him named and pictured with the first guard !) the only real story from this time was they escorted The Duke of York and Mrs Simpson ( on Douglas Fairbanks yacht ) through the South China Seas.

I am sure this does not help -- but as you say -- if you take statements from three people who witnessed a crime you get five different versions of the same event.

Again my thanks for yout thoughts

I will keep taking the medicine

Nick Charman

January 16, 2010

Nick: The London Gazette lists all foreign orders, decorations and medals 'officially' awarded to British subjects. If the award is not mentioned in the London Gazette it has not been officially awarded and has not been authorized for wear by the recipient. Thousands of awards of the French Croix de Guerre to British servicemen were listed in the London Gazette during, and after, the Great War. That said, many British officers and other ranks thought they were awarded the French Croix de Guerre and many actually wore the ribbon or medal of that decoration on their uniform but their awards are not listed in the London Gazette. The reasons for this are numerous, and include: (1) the soldier was told he had been awarded the decoration by a French officer but that award never went through official channels; (2) the Croix de Guerre was also a unit award and many soldiers thought, wrongly, that due to the unit award they were authorized to wear the decoration; and (3) many soldiers appear to have self-awarded the decorations to themselves.

Regards, Gunner1

Thank you Gunner 1,

May I apolgise for my lack of knowledge --- I must have got it totally wrong at "Kew" --- and I was sitting opposite him !!!

Again thank you for the time and trouble you have taken to answer my question --- if you will allow me -- I will go through your many points above and put further queries and or questions to you?

1) LG lists medals "officially" awarded -- Q -- does that mean you have "turn up some where" and have it given to you --or "pinned on" --- and if this has not taken place " its not official ??

2) I understand what you say -- and my Father never ever wore it - or really ever referred to it -- it is a newspaper cutting from the Croydon Advertiser ( dated some where arround November or December 1918 -- and given to me by one of my fathers sisters -- that really sparked off this quest, and yes I do not always beleive what I see in newspapers.

3) I understand ---- the various points you make -- and I think also most villages and towns on the Western Front that were blown to pieces were also given the CdG -- Like Malta and the GC

Again my thanks -- I am learning,

Kind regards

Nick Charman

January 15, 2010

I have gone through the online London Gazette using both his four-digit and six-digit number and have found no entry for him for the award of the French Croix de Guerre. Gunner 1

Thank you Gunner 1 -- can i ask a stupid question -- does the LG post entries for French decorations -- I was told a "KEW" -- they did not -- so my stupid question is " does the LD post entries for any CdG awards to recipiants outside France -- and have you seen any at all ??

thank you for your interest

Kindest regards,

Nick Charman

January 15, 2010

If I may...
The address "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defnse.gouv.fr" is not valid, the right one is: "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defense.gouv.fr".
I am pretty sure that, with the help of Paul, you will succeed!

THANK YOU YES YOU ARE RIGHT -- IT BOUNCED BACK WITHOUT THE "E" -- I DID CORRECT AND SEND AGAIN -- AND AGAIN pAUL kEATING HAS BEEN EXTREMELY HELPFUL

Kindest regards

Nick Charman

January 15, 2010

P Keating,

Yet again my thanks to you, may I answer you as follows:-

1) Thank youn for all the information regarding PM me -- will action much later in the day -- again thanks

2) The French translation --- may I ask you to read below before you do any thing - Please

I am not completely with it -- I said originally in my posting on this site that I had not received a reply to my December email -- regret not true -- when I checked further -- I had -- and so I sent the email below -- also shows it date and time, as always.

I will answer more fully later in the day -- but wanted to make certain you new -- my error quickly.

---------- Original Message ----------

From: "nicola@pdimplementations.co.uk" <nicola@pdimplementations.co.uk>

To: bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defnse.gouv.fr

Date: 14 January 2010 at 15:41

Subject: Can I ask -- how to find out if my Father was awarded the Croix de

Guerre in WW1

To:-

The Bureau Cenral D'archives,

Administratives Militaires,

Caserne Bernadotte,

64023 Pau

To whom it may concern.

Please may I ask for your help --- I am sorry I do not speak French, therefore

my email will be written in english --- I was given your address by Nadine

Bonnefoi at the Direction de la memoire, du patrimoine et des archives, 14 rue

Saint-Dominique, 00450, ARMEES.

I beleive that My Father was awarded the Crox de Guerre in the First World War,

he was in the British Army, his regiment was the 21st County of London - 1st

Surrey Rifle Brigade - which was part of the 47th Division-- which fought in

france from 1915 until the end of that war. His name was Arthur Ernest Charman

and his Army number was 2019, he was a private soldier in 1915 -- and was a

Company Sergeant Major in 1918, so at Verdun he might have been a Sergeant, my

understanding is that he was in command of a platoon ( about 20 soldiers from

his regiment) who were called "bombers" ( they fought by throwing hand granades)

and this was in the sewers (underground) at Verdun.

My Father was attached to / or seconded to /the French Army and fought the

German Army in Verdun? I am not certain in which year but the battles were

fought at Verdun ? but this is when he was given his award.

Can you tell me if I can research online -- or is there an address I can write

to ??

I would be pleased to receive any help you are able to give me

May I thank you in anticipation of your help and advice

Kindest regards,

Nick A M Charman

January 15, 2010

Hallo Nick!

"PM me" means "send me a private message through the website's Private Message system". If you click on my name next to my post, you should end up on my profile page, where you will see a button enabling you to send me a message. This way, you can send me your e-mail address, if you wish. Here's an extract from a screenshot of the London Gazette page from 1941, mentioning your father. I see that I misread the entry. The RQMS reference concerns the man below your father. I also misread the sub-heading. Your father seems to have been listed under Pioneer Corps. Sorry about that! Copy and paste this link into your internet browser and it should take you to the LG page in question: http://www.london-ga...upplements/5408

You'll probably be able to find entries for his decorations, using the Advanced Search facility: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search

Regarding your letter to France, unfortunately, very few people in France speak foreign languages, especially in the civil service. So your letter was probably incomprehensible to them. I will translate it into French for you when I have a moment today. I will also see about finding a phone number as, in my experience, the French tend to be very kind and helpful regarding requests like this, especially when one gives them a ring, which I will happily do on your behalf.

PK

January 14, 2010

Would they have been mentioned on his medal index card?

No Mentioned on his medal cards ( as yet have only "done" Kew .

Below is a cut and paste answer to PKeating --

He wasn't 202297 Arthur Ernest Charman, was he? The London Gazette supplement of 19.9.1941 has CSM A E Charman MC DCM MM, acting RQMS, from The Middlesex Regiment serving with The Royal Army Pay Corps, commissioned 2nd Lt as of 25.8.1941.

I am afraid you might spend a lot of time trying to find his CdG in French archives but if you have supporting newspaper clippings from the time, they may help. I would be happy to give your contact a call here in France to see what can be done. PM me if you like. The Verdun connection is interesting. Did he ever tell you what he was doing on secondment to the French Army?

PK

PKeating

Yes my Father's WW2 service no was P202297 -- he did joined the Middlesex Regiment approx 6/9/1939 -- I thought he was a CSM in 1940 still with the Middlesex Regiment -- ( he was commissioned in the feild in 1918 -- but the war ended before he could actually take up the commision ) he wrote to the war office in August 1939 and was told they would call him when they wanted him) so he enlisted as a private as above arround the third day of the war. I thought the commission came through on 1940 ? and it was in the Pioneer Corps, I don't remember seeing shoulder flashes for the Pay Corps -- also the RQMS bit is missing from my memory -- and something tells me he was told that he would have to go to pre-octu etc -- and I thought he declined ( if you are allowed to decline anything ) and was never ( I thought seen with just one pip ) I thought somehow they gave him 2 pips -- but he was posted to the pioneers ?? and finished the war as a Major -- I can remember my Mother sewing on the crowns. He only served in the UK in ww2 -- but funnily enough ran a preoctu school for the Pioneer's on Tadcaster Race Course -- and "looked after a detantion centre" for D-Day diserters in Hyton near Liverpool -- obviously after 6/6/1944.

I thank you for your interest -- " PM me " is not something I understand -- but if you can advise or help me I would indeed be most pleased !!

Below is the copy and paste details i sent to Farnce --- Quote .......

To whom it may concern,

Please may I ask for your help --- I am sorry I do not speak French.

I beleive that My Father was awarded the Crox de Guerre in the First World War,

he was in the British Army, his regiment was the 21st County of London - 1st

Surrey Rifle Brigade - which was part of the 47th Division-- which fought in

france from 1915 until the end of that war. His name was Arthur Ernest Charman

and his Army number was 2019, he was a private soldier in 1915 -- and was a

Company Sergeant Major in 1918, so at Verdun he might have been a Sergeant

My Father was attached to / or seconded to /the French Army and fought the

German Army in Verdun? I am not certain in which year but the battles were

fought at Verdun ? but this is when he was given his award.

Can you tell me if I can research online -- or is there an address I can write

to ??

UNquote ....

I understood he was seconded with his Platoon who were called "bombers" -

( they fought mainly with handgranades, not certain with strong right arm -- or

with some device -- on the rifle ( maybe the later I am just dreaming ?) the

action took place in the sewers at Verdun ( ie undergroud ) -- regret not certain

the year -- but if my history servers me right -- the German's should have been

on the brink of a big victory ???

As I said above would be very pleased indeed if you could help or advise

Thank you for your response -- extremely interesting

Kindest regards,

Nick A M Charman

January 14, 2010

What is your father's name and rank? Regards, Gunner 1

Thank you Gunner !

This is a cut and paste job below -- which i hope willa nswer your question

Thank you for your reply

Nick Charman