saschaw

Dear Gentlemen,

Does anyone of you know something about Turkish made "Eiserne Kreuze" from WWI?

I have one that I don't believe to be of German origin,

but first: does some one know about these?

Hmm, why are you all that sure this is a Bavarian jubilee medal?

This guy was navy, so why not a Ottoman award (with this ribbon, I think Lyakat medal) ?!?

"Pfennig" instead of a lost russian medal

Hey hey hey, I've got an idea

Maybe he still lived in 1914 and didn't want to wear the anemy's award anymore?

Sounds logical, doesn't it?

And as we will NEVER know the truth, if I were you, I would also not replace the Russian award.

Is this a valor award was it given for Merit/contribution like the Prussian Red Cross medals?

Not really like the Prussian Red Cross medals, but more like the Prussian "Orden pour le merite" or the avarian Milit?r-Max Joseph-Orden. It is one of the famous "German highest bravery awards of WWI", but, if I remember correcty, exspecially for people dealing with such things like Red Cross, medics and so on (not sure on the 2nd, but on the 1st part).

What a crap ...

The first one, BTW, has yet been sold at "Stauffer Auktionen OHG, M?nsingen", a serious German military auction house and the second one is of our old friend baff002. May No 3 be from Ohio?

Claudio, I love your description of No 1. A big shame I missed auction end

No 1's red cross decoration is a M57 Federal republic version of the nazi award.

They are much more beautiful coming along CASED, aren't they?

Well, you're right, these "Kunst und Wissenschaft" awards are some of the most beautiful Imperials, but the Baden actually isn't, unfortunallity.

SO I don't have a Baden one, but a nice Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha.

Enjoy ...

First of all: You have to much Z?hringer, I want them all ...

I also have an OZL with oakleaves mini to share... an interesting mix of an EK, OZL and Waldeck Verdienstkreuz. I'm pretty sure this belonged to a senior Baden official by the name of Otto Braun. This piece, along with the lapel bow (that also includes an Honor cross), were sold in separate groups on ebay a while back. I had more info on the man and the group but have, unfortuunately, lost it. Can anyone help with tracking down his career? Was he alive after 1934?

I swear you, these are NOT Otto Braun's ones, but of any of his family. My father has bought some of the Braun stuff, and we have seen ALL of it live. (most awards beeing brought back to the state after death, but still the documents )

Otto Braun was awarded things like Baden Z?hringer L?we: Commander's cross 2nd class, Knight's cross 1st class with Oak leaves, Knight's cross 1st class.

W?rttemberg Friedrichsorden: Commander's crosses 2nd and 1st class.

Prussian Red Eagle order: Cross 2nd class with star, I believe the same with the Prussin crown order. He died before the war, if I remember correctly.

His daughter has been married a Dr. Giercke, a later Proffessor in University Heidelberg (my father has the document) who also won a Baden ZL3bElX in WWI (my father has the document, too), so I thougt a long time, that this bar with Baden and Waldeck was his, but he has never been awarded the Waldeck order (but a Centenarmedaille 1897), so it has to be someone elses bar - I don't know who's ...

BTW, he also sold some stuff of Otto Braun's father August Braun who received a 1870er EK II on white and black ribbon ...

I loved the seller to sell it complete, but he didn't and now it is split and spread all over the world

The first thing that jumps out, and I?m surprised that no one has mentioned it, is that we have an 1870 - 71 non combat medal on the combat ribbon.

Well, noone metioned it as there is not any problem with it at all. The Prussian 1870er Denkm?nze could have been awarded:

- in Bronze am Band f?r K?mpfer

- in Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer

- in Stahl am Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer

So I cannot understand what your problem is.

Also, the Merit medal of the Friedrichsorden (1st position) is an higher award than the civil merit medal (2nd one), so I cannot see theree any problem as well.

The only thing in my honest opinion is the "Pfennig" on the Russian St. Anna ribbon ...

Well, working from the assumption that the Red eagle is most likely 4th and the Crown most likely 3rd ...

@Heiko's bar:

Has anyone noticed that the RAO and KO ribbons are mounted in front of the Johanniterorden which is a neck badge?

I'd rather think both they are not on the bar as well, being 2nd classes ...

PS:

Sorry for "rewarming" all those nearly one year old threads ...

I'm happy I made you believers ...

Also in imperial stuff, NOTHING seems to be impossilbe. I have no idea who this might be, unfortunallity.

I bought it once on Ebay.de as I just wanted to know which medal he is wearing in third place, being surprisded it is a SMVM. But, also if we cannot see: this is a "Frackspange", although it seems to be a normal bar. SO he wears the BMVK2KrX behind his EK II, rather uncommon nevertheless.

BTW, his wife is wearing an nice K?nig Ludwig Cross ..

Yes, this bar seems VERY wrong. I don't believe that a Bavarian would wear his bravery medal behind his MVOVKIIm/schw., and ESPECIALLY not behind an EKII.

Do you really believe this? Well, I can unterstand you believed this so far, but what's about this guy?

He wears his MVK2KrX in front of the EKII, as far as good. But behind the EKII, he has his "Silberne Milit?rverdienstmedaille" !!!

Very nice group anyhow, but methinks the "Pfennig" does not match to the bar, there should be, at least in my opinion, a Russian award - but I don't know which ...

Another slow mover, but he does sell a few with monotonous regularity - Milit?rdienstauszeichnung Baden f?r 15 Jahre, Spange for only EUR 180 offered in eBay auction #6224169758. Described as being made of solid silver, marked 800 J.PETRY on the back:

[attachmentid=15144]

It was me who also bought one of these bars - a really long time ago. I still have it of course. It is a crappy cast, according to Mr. Bretzendorfer and to my own eyes. The real silver bars were never cast but "gepr?gt" (and again, I can't rember the english wort, sorry )

I think NONE of the awards and decorations (and also ribons) offered by raritaetensammlerclub to be original, and cetra2003 is anyhow connected to him and sells the TR stuff at the moment, please have a lok at this great crap. I cannot imagine that buff002 is connected to him also, but I'd not buy any of his ribbon bars, too. The same, BTW, with am-militaria (or ma-militaria) from Austria ...

You can make great deals on Ebay as some of the really good stuff sells under price, but not with these three sellers

... the problem with this medal bar was, that all medals are minis! Only in 8 ... 12 mm !!!

regards

Michael

Are you sure these are (well, the Zivilverdienstmedialle DOES look strange)?

Did maybe YOU get it for a reasonable price, or has the seller it still?

So this one might even be a little bit more interessting, but actutally even less worth than I thught, as I thought it were real size medal bar with are extremely rare 25mm(?) Centenarmedaille ...

Thanks a lot to all of you ...

I think I'll try to take better pictures as soon as I get the bar

niiice one!!!

Is there a hole from a missing device at the Crown ribbon?????

Best regards

Daniel

There is a little damage in the ribbon. It might be from swords, but it might also not be, I cannot tell sure ...

PS:

The EK ribbon has been missing when I got the bar, I replaced it correctly. On the reverse, there has a rest been visible, first I thought it might be black-white, but i was definitely not!

On the one hand, it does look crazy, but on the other hand, I have a actually good FEELING with this bar, both times it has been offered on ebay.de ...

Hmm ...

I don't know, but who does with such things?

Maybe another bar of a "f*ck the regulations, I wear what I think looks good"-guys ...

I just liked to buy this bar, but it was to expensive, also in my opinion.

The decorations are correct as shown on the pictures, but not Nr. 4 which might have been a imperial Russian one. Number one is OEK 2984, Number 2 is 2997 or 2997/1 - no Red Eagle order, no Crown order at the neck ...

I love the Centenarmedaille little prinzen size/big mini. This one about 25mm? Never seen in this size again ...

BTW, the "Orden Heinrichs des L?wen" is from Brunswick, not from Baden ..

David Gregory's Z?hringer, I'm 100% sure, is not a modern fake or anything like this. I'd rather think it is a replacement, from WWI or some later, maybe 20's or (early, not Frontfigher-Honourcross!) 30's. Probably not a awarded piece in my honest opinion ...

Exactly this one has been for some year in my father's collection until he sold it on Ebay.de in 2004, if I remember the date correctly.

As he collects different variations, this has been a mistake in my opinion, I've NEVER seen such a piece again. It came from another collector who got this bar with a second, same combination, from a family, so they might have belonged together. The other one is a common, good "1914-1915" well quality piece.

I would say, from the precendence of the awards on the Medalbar, he was a Prussian with heart and soul.

Well, by now I've seen some Baden officer portraits from about 1870 to 1900 (REAL Baden officers, fighting 1866 against Prussia!) wearing their Baden awards, even the Z?hringer, after their Prussian REO and so.

Since 1871 they had the "Pr?dikat K?niglich Preu?isch" (and got Prussian LS awards), but actually still were Badeners in an Baden regiment, so they might not have knwon how to wear it the right way ...

Here's my only W?rttemberg ribbon bar:

Now that the auction is all said and done what was the reason for the Schwarzburger being moved from 2nd place on the ribbon bar to 2nd to last place on the medal bar?

THIS would also me interesset really.

He was probably not a Schwarzburger, rather a Baden or Prussian citizan. Might he have been for a short time in a Schwarzburg regiment, and wore the Schwarzburg ribbon there that far on 2nd place? Might it be this? Or is there anyting else that would make any sense?

The oak leaves are very small. Is it normal ? I'm not familiar with medals before 1900.

No, it is not normal, a absolutely untypical oak leaves for such a Baden decoration.

The bar's wearer was Prussian, maybe his tailor had not a fitting one ...

And the reverse, all well done in fine pre-1897 quality:

PS: Got the Schulterstück with the bar and think they might have belonged together, but the Schulterstück is not from 1870, but might rather be from 1890 or so.

PPS: btw, bought it from Carsten Zeige, Hamburg.

PPPS: Pardon for these crappy little pictures, could please someone tell me when I can post larger pictures than just 100kb a posting?