saschaw

Another, very similar one, albeit with curled ribbons, was sold just a few weeks ago, again by afanade2014:

On 29/07/2023 at 15:27, 1812 Overture said:

Hessen Ehrenzeichen für Kriegsfürsorge？

On 31/07/2023 at 00:24, Farkas said:

A different suggestion is a Finnish medal.

While I cannot exclude them by 100 %, I think neither of them is very likely.

I stick with the Bavarian jubilee medal, despite the ribbon looking bit odd.

On 31/07/2023 at 00:24, Farkas said:

The red centre stripe, the yellow stripes with thin red edges (white on Baden service medal) (...)

The Baden ribbon mentioned here did not have white edges.

That type of ribbon was only used until the 1850s...

Besides it's heavily worn, I do not see anything wrong with the initially shown piece.

That being said, I'd wait for a nicer piece. They're uncommon, but not super rare!

On 11/04/2014 at 08:46, Thierry said:

Reichsritter des Johanniter Ordens

Just one petty addition: His rank within the Prussian Johanniterorden is called Rechtsritter, not Reichsritter. Other than the Ehrenritter, the entry-level who were simply appointed, these received an actual dubbing by the Herrenmeister. The English and French terms for Reichsritter would be "Knight of Justice" respectively "chevalier de justice".

According to a recently published research, "our" Major z. D. Koenemann was one of only 16(!) men to receive a Prussian Royal Crown Order, 3rd class cross on the white ribbon ("KO3w") during the war... I cannot deny I would prefer to own a later picture of him!

2 hours ago, bilylev said:

I would like to hear if the size 44 mm is correct or not. And if it was produced by casting.  Thanks.

I can only echo what augustin1813 wrote: this medal's diameter should be more around 34 mm. Probably a typo by the author!

These medals were die-struck and there's no doubt about that, but it seems the blanks were pre-cast to make things easier.

On 25/07/2023 at 23:55, saschaw said:

(...) but doesn't a fellow user of this forum own an albeit later (WW2 era) ribbon bar to Duke Carl Eduard, which could make things much, much easier... ?!

Not sure if it's of use for this specific quest, but: I found it, posted by Claudio more than three years ago...

On 27/06/2023 at 16:27, Deutschritter said:

PS: Do you happen to know what Kurt von Manteuffel (Kommandierender General des stellv. XIV. Armeekorps) received during WWI? Thanks again! 

Similar to General der Infanterie Hugo Freiherr von Freytag-Loringhoven, the Kommandierende General Kurt Freiherr von Manteuffel received Baden's Zähringer Lion order Grand Cross with swords (BZ1X) - on January 27, 1916, to be precise. 

On 27/06/2023 at 01:25, Deutschritter said:

Military Merit Order (Bavaria), 3rd Class with Swords (BMV3⚔)

... as of rangliste 1906, reclassified as BMV.O⚔ (Officer's Cross)

Are you sure that's the same grade, and thus a reclassification? Or might he have been awarded with the higher grade in the meantime? I don't have an appropriate rank list handy right now...

On 11/06/2022 at 17:48, VtwinVince said:

I'm sceptical, who's selling this thing?

Without any doubt one of the sellers referred to in this thread.

This modern fake is apparent from an overall lack of quality.

Not sure, though, if such a spelling variation might exist...

On 27/07/2023 at 22:43, Great Dane said:

I did some basic research on the internet, and apparently this medal was - at least up until the end of WWI - used as a medal for merit. After that it transformed into more of an 'arts and sciences' type medal.

Not a major expert in Ottoman medals, but I always thought it was rather the other way around: arts, science and such in the pre-WW1 era, and then, during the war, a merit medal for a much wider field, and often used when medals for actual courage seemed unsuitable.

On 27/07/2023 at 22:43, Great Dane said:

I have a (lo-res) photo of my man wearing his ribbon bar before he got the Iron Cross. The red/white ribbon is clearly to be seen in the last position.

Hadn't noticed before, but I find it absolutely remarkable "your man" received bravery or war medals from four(!) different states before he was awarded the mere Iron Cross!

From Baden, he received a Zähringer Lion order Grand Cross with swords (BZ1X) in early 1916!

I'd guess this wasn't all he received during the war, besides the Iron Crosses you already have?

Daniel's newly published list adds swords to his RAO2E in 1916 and the star to that in 1917...

On 12/03/2013 at 19:27, jaba1914 said:

Medal bar of KptLt Johannes von Lossnitzer, commander of L 16, LZ 120, L41 and L 70. He died during the last raid over England. Onboard of L 70 was also FrgKpt Peter Strasser.

 

07.01.1911 Preußen - Rettungsmedaille
06.08.1915 Sachsen - Albrecht Orden Ritter 2 mit Schwertern
03.03.1916 Bayern - MVO 4.Kl.mit Schwertern
00.00.1916 Schamburg-Lippe - Kriegsverdienstkreuz
15.11.1917 Coburg-Gotha - SEHO Ritter 1.Kl.mit Schwertern

 

 

What an absolutely beautiful medal bar! What I like the most, besides its provenience, of course, is the fact it combines bravery awards from five different German states, without any commemoratives, jubilee medals, long service awards and such. The Rettungsmedaille am Bande is just the icing on the cake!

One minor correction, though: the decoration in last place is from the principality of Lippe (so-called "Lippe-Detmold"), not from Schaumburg-Lippe. No doubt you know this, but others that stumble upon this remarkable thread might not...

On 29/07/2023 at 17:44, VtwinVince said:

Looks like a Spangenstueck (...)

Not to me. It's seemingly massive silver, and it has the proper die characteristics. The Schnallenstücke are usually silvered brass or even zink, and exhibit an inferior design quality; some don't even have the proper inscription "KRIEGER / VERDIENST".

December last year, in their eLive Auction 75, Künker sold more than twenty(!) "doublets" from the famous Peter Groch collection. They make quite a reference! I do agree the market value of Jannis' piece is negligible.

Besides men "serving in a unit of this State or on his teritory" as the main recipients, technically everyone else could receive this medal as well. Most German states' awards were not strictly limited to residents! This, by the way, applies to both war and peace-time awards!

On 07/07/2017 at 20:01, CRBeery said:

The surface is quite pitted and frankly this medal would concern me as far as originality goes. Look at the pits at 9 o'clock on the obverse near the rim. I'm not comfortable with this medal based on the photos.

It looks heavily worn and probably polished as well, but, as far as can be seen from pictures, nothing indicates a forgery to me. These aren't too rare anyway, so the odds are good.

Despite everything being possible, I think a Baden long service medal is very unlikely in this group, not least because it should not be worn in combination with the Wehrmacht duo that replaced it! Assuming some odd discoloration, I'm with Christophe: This is most likely the Bavarian 1905 Jubiläumsmedaille für die Armee, or - maybe even more likely - one of the other Bavarian medals worn on the same ribbon: The Bronzene Prinzregent-Luitpold-Medaille am Bande der Jubiläumsmedaille from 1911/12, and the semi-official Goldene-Hochzeits-Erinnerungsmünze from 1918 that wasn't handed out until the early 1920s. There's no way to know for sure...

On 16/05/2021 at 17:21, J_medailes said:

Any information about what class these are is welcome! Thanks you very much!

The major question has been answered, but fussy as we phalerists can be, there are some additions and corrections to be made: Nonn's Baden Zähringer Lion order was a knight's cross 2nd class with oak leaves and swords, and Lippe's Kriegsverdienstkreuz was no "second class" because it came in only one grade. The Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen from Hessen is certainly an issue for bravery, as could be read on the reverse... it is "Für Tapferkeit", right?

There's another one, with an "XII" medal and a Lippe connection, offered on German ebay right now!

On 25/05/2023 at 22:04, LuckySlevin said:

Probably one of the reason could not find him (...) is that most/part of awards could have been awarded during the war period.

While they technically could have been awarded during the war, I think that's very unlikely. The only apparent war decoration is the König-Ludwig-Kreuz, and I'm confident most others had already been awarded earlier than 1914. After all, this bar represents a four-decade-long career!

What's noteworthy as well is the tailor's tag on the reverse. Max Küst from Berlin? That's far from the wearer's Bavarian home - and I wonder if it might be a clue! Still no idea, though, where to look for such a civilian if not in the Bavarian Hof- und Staatshandbuch...

By the way, the Princely Hohenzollern decoration could, from the pictures, be either a Silberne Verdienstmedaille or a Goldene Ehrenmedaille ! It's really difficult if not impossible to distinguish their usual thin galvanic gold layer from a nice "golden" silver patina.

I agree this combination is most likely unique, and thus fits your researched man. I assume it's not the case here, but want to be 100%: That Ottoman "Iftihar Madalyasi" sometimes has an Arabic name engravement on the back... so, does it?

On 15/03/2023 at 17:44, Glenn J said:

His Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe is confirmed in the 1918 edition of the same publication although the Iron cross must have been awarded somewhat later than the publication date (31 March 1918).

Which makes sense, given the larger portion of white ribboned(!) EKs were awarded after the war, and this would probably be one of them...

Is this yours, and could you provide higher-quality pictures? I fear we cannot be definitive from what can be seen here. It generally does look good, but I see something that might be a red flag. It's certainly not a piece to be judged from three mediocre pictures.

On 11/03/2023 at 05:56, Alex K said:

Can I ask, as a novice, exactly which bit is "weird" or am I missing something? 

The thing is these have been heavily faked since the 1980s, sometimes in incredibly high quality. I guess this is what eos512 is referring to...

Cannot add anything to the provenience, unfortunately, but...

On 16/08/2008 at 19:02, dante said:

Steel EKI looks like pin replaced , pin maker marked "5" (Hermann Wernstein from Jena-Löbstadt)

... this is not a Wernstein made cross! The marking "5" on this WW1 era cross could be anything, but not a 1940s PKZ marking. Probably just some control mark to attribute the cross to a specific worker within the factory, or to a specific batch of production. I guess that's still debated.

Also, the bar - especially its backing - does not look like 1930s to me. Rather 1950s or 1960s? I have similar groups that contain World War 2 era awards in the de-nazified BRD/FRG design. Are you sure this group was "captured" in 1945, and not possibly obtained some years later? Please, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying (or implying) it's fake! Maybe just a bit younger than we assumed...

On 21/05/2023 at 21:23, 03fahnen said:

I bought it from a collector who told me that it came from the family of a Spanish officer who was attached to Germany at the time. (but this is a matter of faith)

I don't need much faith, though, to believe this. Looks perfectly fine and authentic to me!

On 23/07/2023 at 00:07, Deutschritter said:

(...) but I am surely missing some WWI decorations.

According to this list recently published by Daniel Krause, he also wore the Grand Cross with swords (but no oak leaves, due to him skipping the 1st class) of the Red Eagle Order. The only source seems to be a portrait of v. Below where he wears it en sautoir. Seems to have been a "give-away" alongside the Black Eagle...