saschaw

I cannot identify the maker, but nonetheless, this is an authentic, inter-war era private purchase cross, probably from the early to mid 1930s. Very similar crosses are shown on our friend 5tefan's site ek1-dna.de, described as "Unknown Maker (Associated with Otto Schickle)". See here for reference.

6 hours ago, Graf said:

If the Dealer is respectable , he might have given you some information (...)

How that, please? If the seller cannot or doesn't want to attribute this cross to a certain maker, this has no influence on his reputation and it doesn't take anything away from the cross. I sometimes really don't get how fixated we're on the "maker thing" - often not sourced, and sometimes just wrong! This is not the main thing about authentic, historical awards, if you ask me. But I really don't want to argue...

23 hours ago, Nihil Sine Deo said:

Once again thank you for the reference, I really appreciate.

Oh, I might have to point out the Wernitz book does not necessarily attribute this exakt type cross to Gebr. Friedländer, but it has a ton of information on the historical background, on contracts with official suppliers and on so much more, and thus is the foundation of my remark.

This work can only be recommended, unless you're into all the private purchase variations of the inter-war era, because it only shows a tiny glimpse of those. Plus, in case you don't know, the book was additionally published in English as well, which might suit you better than German!

From the pictures, I don't see anything worrifying, and would sort it as authentic. Also, it doesn't look "mint" to me, just not too much worn and then stored well. After all, this is a mid-1930s bar, none from WW1 era! 

I agree with that mentioned "someone": This seems to be the "Fr." mark used by Hofjuweliere Gebrüder Friedländer, Berlin. The "non-magnetic frame", by the way, is real silver, usually 800/000, despite not being marked such.

See Frank Wernitz, Das Eiserne Kreuz 1813 – 1870 – 1914. Geschichte und Bedeutung einer Auszeichnung. Viena, 2013. Volume 1, p. 331–440.

That's a beautiful, high quality cross with the mark "W&S", which is relatively uncommon!

These were awarded in bronze only, but it was a relatively bright alloy. Or could it have a later applied, unofficial silver layer? Hard to judge from the pictures if it's actually the base metal or not...

On 09/07/2022 at 23:48, Deutschritter said:

What could the last three ribbons with swords be? Thank you!

I do not know, but if I had to guess, I'd suggest the war commemorative medals from Austria, Hungary and Bulgaria - a relatively common trio for a "Great War" veteran in uniform in the 1930s, especially for one who didn't win much more than a plain EK2...

I absolutely agree you "had a good show", and like that Reserve or Landwehr officer's bar best. Also, I don't see much wrong with the sewing. Not a Godet made bar, apparently, but other than that good enough for a professional's job I'd say.

5 hours ago, scottplen said:

 Been reading up on Red Cross awards and the second class would be a war time award and they were ranked that way . I assume Bronze was  peacetime award.

Not sure where this claim originates from, but to me it seems the two classes were ranked differently right from the beginning. Epstein, p. 6, in his 1906 Die Vorschriften der Deutschen Bundesstaaten über die Trageweise und die Rückgabe der Orden und Ehrenzeichen gives separate precedence for the 2nd and 3rd class, with the 2nd class right behind the orders and in front of all Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen classes, the Dienstauszeichnungskreuz (not mentioned, but apparently the Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung I. Klasse as well) and the Princely Hohenzollern Ehrenkreuz 2nd or 3rd class.

On your bar, the 2nd class medal (and the 3rd class as well, by the way) might still be war time awards, but they do not have to be, and to my understanding, it would not necessarily effect precedence on the bar if they are. Pretty confusing, but Epstein used official sources, and gives tons of weird details...

4 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Here's a few more.

Wow! I love the huge one, but the three place bar with that "70" jubilee button, if that's authentic, must be one of a kind or really, really close to it. However, I'm unfortunately lacking numbers for crosses awarded for service jubilees... 

Do you have additional information, and has this group been discussed before here or in a fellow German forum? With proper source material, which I don't have, this "simple" trio might even be attributable!

On 11/12/2008 at 01:35, sambolini said:

Are the center medallions attached seperately?

Yes they are, and it might be of interest the centers are usually made from real gold, while the cross itself is gilt bronze only. If you have one in hands, you'll easily notice how very thin the material used for the centers is!

From what I know, this cross is probably too generic to be attributed to a certain maker, due to all the core swapping and so on among the official makers of Great War era award type crosses - sorry!

14 hours ago, Peter Cornwell said:

Rothe u. Neffe came to mind (...)  

I'm not aware this Vienna(!) maker produced contemporary award type crosses. Is this attribution from one of these unsourced online lists? Just doesn't sound plausible and right to me...

On 20/02/2022 at 12:49, saschaw said:

I think the fourth neck cross remained unnamed until now. It's apparently not listed in his DOA 1908/09 entry, but my best guess would be an Ehrenkomturkreuz of the Großherzoglich Oldenburgischer Haus- und Verdienstorden des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig. But is it? Might anyone have a younger source mentioning Robert Esser with this award?

I asked a fellow Oldenburg collector to have a look into this, and he told me "1914 ist kein Robert Esser im Staatshandbuch verzeichnet, zu keiner Ordensklasse. Auch kein Esser allgemein". This leaves us with two possibilities: He received an Oldenburg house and merit order at a later point and the photo was taken afterwards, or it's indeed something else. But if so, what could it be?!

Prof. Oskar Hackenberger, by the way. It seems he was relatively well-known and popular, which explains the amount of awards. Even today, he has a detailed and impressive article on the German Wikipedia!

Despite we have already seen several Petz & Lorenz Spangen in this thread, this screw back type is still missing. It appears to be Buntmetall, but in fact, it's entirely made from magnetic steel or iron! I guess this qualifies as a "rare bird"!

Good to see you around here! Much better than seeing, again, a hand full fakes on ebay!

On 06/03/2022 at 03:05, CRBeery said:

(...) and just add them to my case.

I guess you do know how rare some of these are? For example, your Württemberg medal is the 1848 type! In fact, I have never seen one medal bar that includes this issue, which is odd, given there were more than 2,200 awarded for the „Feldzug in Schleswig-Holstein, denjenigen gegen die badischen Insurgenten, sowie das Gefecht bei Dossenbach“.

See Klein, Ulrich and Raff, Albert: Die Württembergischen Medaillen von 1797–1864 (einschließlich der Orden und Ehrenzeichen). Stuttgart 2003. p. 234–236.

Good news, Gentlemen! In this year, the Gunzenhausen show will finally take place again, as a regular event open to the public! I received the organizer's invitation a few days ago, and have as well seen a promotion in the recent DGO magazine!

On 22/02/2022 at 01:42, v.Perlet said:

According to the following research - No

http://www.medalnet.net/Eisernes_Kreuz_1870.htm

No sure if I got you wrong (again), but: Do you claim this article refers to authentic 1870 crosses bearing several different makers' markings? I thought I knew Mike's work well, but couldn't find such information. Could you maybe correct what I might have misunderstood here, please?!

On 01/04/2022 at 11:03, Graf said:

I agree with this comment.

Thanks, Graf, I'm glad to hear you agree!

I don't have any information on Wunderlich, but if your question is related to your medal bar shown here: I really cannot make out an Austrian ribbon on the Wunderlich photo, so I assume your tuxedo style bar is most certainly not his...

Here's another one, again on the trifold ribbon. I think we can now accept this ribbon as the "official" type, if we want to call something "official" here.

5 hours ago, 1812 Overture said:

PS, off topic, I haven't seen your website updated for a long time, your website can not only buy things but also learn some knowledge, it's great

You're too kind, thank you! I was sick, possibly with Covid, a few weeks ago, and thus needed a small break. My next update is scheduled for this Friday, and hopefully everything will work this time... 

For those of you who might not have noticed by now: The Marien-Kreuz, unfortunately, is among the many awards that are heavily faked, for maybe just some months now. Currently, one not too nice example is available on ebay. Caveat collector!

23 hours ago, chuck said:

Just to clarify my comment those figures were quoted for the 1st World War period only.

Thanks for the clarification, but there was no misunderstanding at all. I'm aware there were many hundreds of 4th class crosses awarded, mainly in the unification wars and in the colonial and oversea conflicts.

Here I'd love to promote late Eric C. Ludvigsen's statistic works, that were published posthumous, but unfortunately, they're out of print and seemingly not available anywhere... which is really sad.

On 11/11/2021 at 23:48, Deutschritter said:

Orden vom Zähringer Löwen, Ritterkreuz I. Klasse (BZL3a⚔/BZ3a⚔)

According to the 1892 Hof- und Staats-Handbuch des Großherzogthums Baden, p. 167, Freiherr von Falkenhausen received the Ritterkreuz I. Klasse mit Schwertern (sic) in 1874. Under the revised 1879 statutes, he did not have to return this cross for a higher grade without swords, and thus it's still listed in the later rank list, alongside his peace time 1st class commander set.

12 hours ago, chuck said:

I had also previously read in Neal O'Conner books Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany that the third, and fourth class Red Eagle (116 awards) and Crown Order (54 awards) were given out as retirement type awards for over the hill German Officers.

I'm not sure if the given numbers are complete, but it's certainly true that in WW1, when these classes were usually not awarded, they were sometimes used as a "leaving present". Foreign recipients seem to be another topic though, which is documented by this Bulgarian officer's group.

5 hours ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

But this is something I won't follow (...)

No need to argue, Gentlemen. The writing is much younger than the picture, and I have seen mislabeled pictures before. One of my favorite photos titles the Grand Duchess of Baden as "Queen of Karlsruhe" (sic). As long as we won't find another possible suspect for these awards worn on this exact uniform, I'm going with Major Jochmus as well...