Edgar Estrada

Knowledge is power!

Dave

Hi Dave!!

The bad thing is that the faker can have the same power. If they know what the collectors know about the medals, badges, etc. the fakes would be as good as the originals. Or not? what do you think?

Regards

Edgar

PS: Still looking for an KC 57!!

beatiful cross. Good for you that you have it. enjoy it.

Edgar

I must admit the fakes were a reason that I moved on, but another reason was looking at some photos of the cities in 1940-41.... they looked very much like the cities of today... for some strange reason I thought... its not quite "history" yet.

In Imperial times with the funny moustaches, it seemed to be old enough to be "interesting". WW2 was recent past.

I dunno, its a reason that is difficult to explain, but I saw local men with the same comb over, dandruff and probably 'rhoids as I saw in the 1940s party, SA and SS photos... and I thought... "this is not exotic, old or history..."

Anyway, its a highly subjective view, so most collectors would just shake their head when I voice it, but each to his own....

Hello Chris

I see you are interested in WWI. I am interested in the German Navies and I like more the Imperial Dagger, Imperial Navy Wound Badge and Imperial U-boot Badge than the ones from the KM, but I do not know more badges from the Imperial Navy (WWI). Could you tell me which badges the Imperial Navy had?

Thanks

Edgar

Thanks, Temple.

Yes, always POLITICS. But, that means that there were not a standard of victories or something like that which determinated the bestowing of the award? Like say, "when a pilot gets his 50 victories the Knigh Cross, 75 the oak leaves", etc. Was that the same case in the KM and army?

Thanks

Edgar

PS: Sorry about my English, I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Where/ How can I order a copy of the book?

Thanks

Edgar

Johannes Steihoff had more "victories" than Galland and others aces. Why did not he get the diamonds for his knight Cross?

Regards

Edgar

Becuase my dream to have a real and original one will never come true (or an Imperial German Navy Dagger), I would like to have at least one like the first one posted here (specially with that price $ 80).

So, if someone is saling it please let me know. But of course it is just because I do not have the money to buy a real one, otherwise...no way I would get the REAL.

Regards

Edgar

Eduardo,

You have the best collection of naval feldgrau I have ever seen. While I have seen the odd enlisted tunic here and there, it is nothing to compare to what you have there. I agree with the others, That old style officers "crusher" is to die for. And that Admirals uniform is fantastic. Unfortunately I do not have any, as I no longer collect TR. I would love to see you post some more though.

Dan Murphy

I say just the same. It is very impressive my friend. Thanks, you never let me down.

I wish to go to Spain and see it by myself. Take care.

Edgar

but thanks to a fellow member, Sandro, I now have some of those little stands.

I have tided the top shelf somewhat. Next shelf down still a disaster.

Thanks Sandro!

Rich

Hi Richard

Firt at all, let me tell you (but of course everybody told you already), that you have a great collection. Thanks for sharing.

I was wondering about the little stands. Could you tell me where you get them? I would like to have a few for my badges too.

kind regards

Edgar

I read in other forum about a product that was made for antic conservation: Renaissance Wax (Ren Wax). According to the information it can be used in any kind of surface. Could you tell me if you know about it? Have you used it on your KM badges? Can it be used on iron Crosses and Spanges? Is it okay to use it on helmets? I do not have a big collection but I would like to give the best care to my small one (one KM helmet, one Km dagger, two iron crosses and five Km badges). Please any comment will be of a lot of help.

Kind regards,

Edgar

Hello!

As a collector of orders and decorations I am sometimes also interested in some accessories of uniforms, too. So I found a webside of the maufacteurer of german daggers of ww1 and ww2, who made some modern versions of these old daggers. Here my question: does anyone of you have got one of these daggers or swords and could tell me something about the quality and so on?

I know that these daggers are NOT so good as the older types, but these are - for me - to expensive, so I think about the others as an alternative. What do you think?

Thanks for your help!

westfale

I have just the same question as you. I saw that WKC is making a new version of the Imperial German Navy dagger (open crown). Even with damascus blade!! (if you want). I would like to know also about the quality and so on. I hope someone can help us.

Edgar

As promised:

I will try now, to explain in the best possible way as it began my interest for Carl Holler. When I was still child, my grandfather Johannes Wilhelm August Kruse, son of Johannes Kruse and of Mary Holler (Mimi, the sister of Carl Holler), told me Niels Sornsen's history (artistic name of Carl Holler), your uncle singer. Surprisingly my grandfather didn't count that he had been pilot in WWI. The years (many) passed and I finished forgetting about Carl Holler. In the year of 2004, separating some books powdered in the attic of my mother's house, I found a small genealogical book regarding the Holler's family, written by Carl Holler. In one of the pages, I discovered that Carl Holler, besides singer, had been pilot during WWI. I was happy and curious and immediately I began to seek information in the internet. In one of the researches, I found the site of a forum (theaerodrome) and I asked for help. Immediately I began to receive information on Carl Holler. One of the members (Taz, that some of you know well) told me that he had a friend, Gary Perkins, a former-pilot of USAF, that had served in England in the eighties, that possessed some items belonged to Carl Holler that he had bought when it had been parked in England. From this moment, I began to change emails with him. He ordered me pictures of the items (awards, medals, pictures, papers and other items) that had belonged to Carl Holler. I was very excited and I asked to him that, if some day he intended to sell these items, it informs me .Some weeks later, he sent to me an email saying that it was recuperating an old Ford, and he would need to do some money. He offered me then the collection. I was very happy, but at the same time very nervous. I didn't have the necessary money for the purchase on that moment. Commenting on the subject in another forum (Pickelhaubes), which was not my surprise when one of the members offered to buy the collection saying that I could pay later. I won't say the name of that member for request of him, but I want him to know one more time, that I will never forget the help and the friendship that he demonstrated.

Yes guys, miracles exist!

Otto

Great, great. It is a nice story, thanks for sharing and I am really glad to know that your dream came true and that friends still exist (good people).

Cheers

Edgar

The Knights Cross in WW2 and the PLM in WW1 could BOTH be awarded for the successful planning and organization of operations during wartime. This is why they cannot be compared to the US Medal of Honour or the UK Victoria Cross which are for bravery above and beyond the call of duty. General staff officers that never fired a shot on the battlefield, but were very good at planning, could be and were awarded either the RK or the PLM depending on the war. It was felt that their contribution to the success of a battle was just as worthy as an officer that commanded the troops in the field. You must admit that given all other factors are the same, poor planning can lose a battle or excellent planning can win it. This has been proven countless times in a number of wars.

I see no reason why you should not respect them all. They both did their jobs to the best of their ability. Without excellent staff officers, the best officers at the front would be unable to perform their jobs. True an officer at the front risks his life, while a staff officer would only be risking his career if he were a failure, but he also understands that the the fates of thousands of men are on his shoulders. In many ways he has more responsibility than an officer at the front. Do you think GFM Model ever fired a gun in anger during WW2? Maybe at a boar. Even a divisional commander at "the front" with his division would usually be miles behind the lines at his HQ most of the time.

Dan Murphy

Good point Dan, thanks. The thing is that what I know about Ketel in other fields makes me to dislike him. In my oppinion he has not comparation with Model, Guderian, Rommel, Donitz, etc.

And yes, it that way the RK has not comparation with the Victoria Cross (and I like it), and I read also in a book that the RK was given democratically to all soldiers no matter the rank or nationality (if they were fighting along with the Germans). I like that too.

I wish all the commanders undestand that the fates of thousands of men are on their hands, in that case I am sure there will be less wars today (or none at all). A lot of them (specially today), look like they do not care. They are safe in the rear, sitting on their desks while the troops are killed in the front. During WWII, I undestand that a lot of the generals were close enough to the front to know what the commoun soldier was facing (Zukhov, Guderial, Rommel, etc).

Any way, thanks for your point. IT is very good to know.

Long life to peace

Edgar

Take a good look, it?s titled Eagle Orders - top of the page 3

Holy cachucha Batman, now I saw all of it. I can not believe what my eyes just saw. That collection is not from this planet.

There are so wonderfull awards there, it is incredible. However, in imo I still believe the most impresive and beatifull award is the Knight Cross of the Iron Cross (and more if it has the adds: oak leaves, swords, etc). But, that does not mean that the German Cross, etc are not beatifull. They are truly very beatifull as well.

Thanks ricky

Edgar

Hello Edgard,

Here?s a wonderful collection of awards:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5516

Enjoy!

Ricky

Thanks a lot Ricky, they are really beatifull. However, I do not know if one of them was the Eagle Order.

regards

Edgar

Nice pictures. Could someone please show me (picture), the Eagle Order? I have not idea about it.

Thanks

Edgar

every day a learn more and more in this forum, thanks. Now, please could you tell me what a first pattern spange is? How many patterns were made? and what is the difference?

Thanks

Edgar

Thank you gentlemen for all the information. There is something that attracted my attention, it says:

?The confusion arises because the same awards were made for very different things. Keitel, Jodl, et al got Knights Crosses without ever leaving GHQ or hearing a shot fired. Luftwaffe aces and Uboat commanders on the other hand made "points" on THEIR victories, and so tended to amass a German Cross's "worth" before a Knight's Cross-- though not always so.?

When I watched the movie ?downfall? and I saw Keitel with Knight Cross, he got some respect from me (as a soldier); because I thought he got the award at the front. But without ever leaving GHQ or hearing a shot, how can it be possible? So my little respect for him is gone again. Why he and the others did not get the War Merit Cross instead of the Knight Cross?

Regards,

Edgar

As far as I know the Knight Cross was made to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross. Then it was add the Oak Leaves, Swords and finally the Diamonds on the Oak Leaves and Swords (And in the end the golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds), to the Knight Cross.

My first question is: Was the Grand Cross a higher award than the Knight Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds?

Who was the highest awarded soldier in WWII? Rudel or Goering?

Was the German Cross in Gold a requariment to win the Knight Cross? Some books say that the German Cross was an award to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Knight Cross and other that it was an independent award. What is true?

Was it harder to win the KC after the making of the German Cross as an award between the Iron Cross First Class and the KC?

Thanks for reading and for the answers.

Kind regards,

Edgar

Thank you all. It will be fantastic to see seamen with helmets on board Tirpitz or Bismarck. Any other pictures will be welcome.

Edgar

THE ROOTS OF THE IRON CROSS

In his book ?the discovery of the Bismarck? Dr. Ballard writes: ? Lindemann gave the order, the blood red battle ensign shot up the mast and was whipped out by the stiff breeze. In the flag upper left-hand corner was a black Iron Cross. In the center, enclosed in a white circle, was a bold Nazi Swastika. Like the navy that flew it, the ensign was an uneasy compromise between tradition and political reality.? We can also read in the book ?Battleship Bismarck? by Von Mullenheim-Rechberg that ?the horizontal and vertical stripes and the Iron Cross in the upper left-hand corner are reminiscent of the white ensign flown by the ships of the Imperial German Navy.? So let?s take a look in one of those Symbols, the Iron Cross.

Through history some heraldic symbols have changed their owners and specially their meaning. A purely lucky symbol in Hindu culture is nowadays the most hated symbol in Western countries: the swastika.

The six pointed Star of David is the single symbol most commonly associated with Jews and Judaism. However, this star did not arise within Judaism, and until recently, it has had not particularly religious meaning. It was once used by Moslems and Christians (Christians still use it as religious symbol).

In 1190 a new Christian Religious Military Order was founded in Palestine, the Teutonic Knights of St. Mary?s Hospital of Jerusalem. They were monks and soldiers and they wore a white cloak with a black cross over a white tunic. So the black cross on a white field was born and the stile of the cross was the ?Tatzenkreuz? that we can still see all over Germany. Just as the Gothic letter this cross was a German way to draw the cross.

In 1525 the Teutonic Knight?s Grand Master gave up the order and abandoned his vows. He became the first Duke of Prussia with hereditary transmission, so converting Prussia in a secular principality. Prussian rulers could not put aside the old times of the Teutonic Knights from their memories and they started using the Order?s symbols as Prussian state symbols.

In 1813 King Friedrich Wilhem III of Prussia established a military award know as ?Iron Cross.? The shape and colors of the award were the same as the used by the Teutonic Order Knights. However the final design was made by the well know German arquitec Karl Frederich Schinkel. Since then Prussia officially usurped the cross of the Teutonic Order and its colors, changing its religious and Christian meaning for a state and military meaning.

As something positive I must say is the fact that the Iron Cross was awarded without regard of nationality or social position class to combatants and noncombatants for act of heroism, contrasting with the Teutonic Order where it can be wear just for nobles knights members of the order and very ?important? people.

?The Nazis motivated by Himmler?s fantasies of reviving German military elite then attended to establish their own ?Teutonic Order? as the highest award of the Third Reich. The ten recipients of this included Reinhard Heydrich and several of the most notorious Nazi criminals, needles to say, although this badge was modeled on that of the genuine order, it had absolutely nothing to do in common with it.? (Quote taken from the web site Papal Orders by Guy Stair Sainty)

?In 1938 the National Socialist regime prohibited the Teutonic Order in Austria and placed its property under the administration of the Third Reich (the Austrian property was restituted by the Republic of Austria in 1947). In 1939 the Teutonic Order was abolished in the Sudetenland (later Czechoslovaquia), its property confiscated and the brothers and sisters expelled from their parishes and convents. This system of confiscation and expulsion was also executed by the Communist government in 1946.

Both the Teutonic Order and its members suffered severe persecution. Some members paid with their lives for their loyalty to the Order. It is difficult to explain in a few words why this action was taken against the order. Suffice is to say that the reasons for the ban included the order?s principle such as the vow ?to defend the Christian faith against all enemies of Christendom and the church,? and the pledge of ?unconditional loyalty to the Pope.? ANOTHER REASON WAS THE FACT THAT - NATURILLY AGAINST THE WILL OF THE ORDER ? THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST MISUSED SOME ELEMENTS OF ITS PAST FOR THE DISTORDED VERTION OF HISTORY THEY EMPLOYED IN THEIR PROPAGANDA. THERE WAS NOTHING THAT THE PROHIBITED AND PERSECUTED ORDER COULD DO TO PREVENT THIS USURPATION, AND EVEN TODAY IT IS SOMETIMES COMPELLED TO PROTES AGAINST THIS MISINTERPRETATION OF ITS SYMBOLS (e.g. THE 800 YEARS OLD CROSS), AND THE FALSIFICATION OF ASPECTS OF ITS HISTORY.? (taken from the Teutonic Knights Official Web Site, my capital letters).

Nowadays the Star of David, the Crescent and the Cross once purely religious symbols have became also symbols of state. How many Europeans flags have the cross on them? I think the black ?Tatzenkreuz? cross on a white field (the Iron Cross), can be used for both the Teutonic Order (today they use a Latin black cross on a white field and the order is purely religious one without the military aspect), as a religious symbol and the Federal Republic of Germany as a state symbol in its Armed Forces because now that cross has history and tradition for both of them (the German Armed Forces and the Teutonic Religious Order). I would like to see the German battle flag charged again with this beautiful heraldic charge: the Iron Cross.

In his book, The Iron Cross, A History 1913-1957, Gordon Williamson says: ?The history of the Iron Cross is as extensive as it is fascinating and to cover it in depth would take a work of many volumes? (would me nice to have all those volumes), and ?assimilated into just about every aspect of German culture, the Iron Cross became more than just a military award.?

Yes, the Nazis used it (However, they did not use it as a party symbol but as a German symbol stained with the party?s symbol that in that time had become also a national symbol imposed by the Nazi party: the Swastika), and now some Neo-Nazi are using or trying to use it and even the Imperial Flag as their symbols (I suppose it is due to the fact that the Swastika is a banned and too obvious Nazi symbol in the West). I really believe and encourage the German government and the Teutonic Order should and to do something to stop those neo-Nazi groups (all over the world), from using the Iron Cross. It (the Iron Cross), should be clean and put in the high position in deserves; the position that a state, Germany, and a religious order, Teutonic Knights, gave to it.

Greetings

Edgar

Thank you, I hope there will be more of them. Could you tell what model of helmet the seamen are using in the picture? I read that just the M42 was used on ships, is that true?

Well I hope not because I have a M35 (I like it a lot), and I like to think that it may be used on a ship, submarine or with the costal artillery. But, anyway it was there during those dark years in our history.

Regards

Edgar

Hello everybody, I am new in this forum and I think I will enjoy all the information in here.

I have some books about the KM and I have seen just one or two pictures (among hundreds of them), of KM personel using steel helmets (one of those pictures is in the book Wolf Pack by Gordon Williamson).

Could you please post your pictures (if there are some of them), of KM seamen with steel helmets?

Thank you

Edgar

Sad to know. Rest in peace Erich Toop.

I wonder if there is any news about his awards and KM dagger that were stolen from him?

Edgar