Claudius

There may be some deeper issues here.  The bar was clearly made to closely match period techniques and materials to create a forgery. 

To paraphrase the legal statement below for this situation, if the Maker/Seller of the piece created something to hang in the home with no intent to sell as original, no crime is committed.  However, if the Buyer wanted something so close to the original that may one day sell as original, then forgery charges could follow.

Vitaly may not be in trouble for creating and selling to 91-old-inf-reg. a medalbar that is a forgery because he wasn't paid the equivalent of what an original bar would sell for, but if 91-old-inf-reg keeps it as an original piece, then he might be charged with a forgery and the Feds will want to know, and they will want to know who he commissioned to get it.  It would be then that Vitaly would be added to an INTERPOL list of known forgers.  

For safety sake, Vitaly and 91-old-inf-reg should consult with their attorneys to make sure this transaction does not attract Federal attention, and going forward Vitaly may want to get clear legal direction about any creations he makes.  I know in the USA there are law against creating forgeries, but I don't know the laws in Ireland.  There could be fines and perhaps short jail time.  

WHITE COLLAR CRIMES: WHAT CONSTITUTES ART FORGERY?

"Creating fake art, changing an existing art piece in an attempt to increase the value, and selling a fake art piece as original art can all lead to art forgery charges. If there is no proof of intent to commit larceny or fraud, or to deceive another party, forgery charges will not likely stand.

If a person replicates a famous, valuable art piece as a decorative object to hang in his or her home with no intent to sell it as an original piece, no crime was committed. However, if an attempt is made to sell this piece as an original, forgery charges could follow... "

23 hours ago, Vit67 said:

Nothing glows. Here is the stitching under the felt.

 

22 hours ago, Vit67 said:

Very close but not exactly.  The fact that I am not ashemed and not apologizing for my doing, doesn't make me a criminal.

I  really,  really don't want to work  for a "black market". 

We need to learn to co-exist.  I just triggered the process that exposed problems, most of the people  find hard to accept.

Regards

Vitaly

 

Hello Vitaly;

I guess you don't understand the spirit of my question. 

When you made the bar, what did you do that would make it distinguishable from a period bar? 

Certainly using modern threads that glow under black light would not distract an owner from enjoying the bar and then it would always carry the "tell" that it is a modern assembly.  You didn't do that.  Your follow up comment regarding the construction was that it was "very close but not exactly".  In your opinion, how is it not exactly?  And what would you have done if you wanted to have a flawless forgery?  

On 02/10/2021 at 10:47, VtwinVince said:

Agreed, just saw on another forum that this Schnalle is an expert Nachbildung.

Just how good of a reproduction is it?  How is the stitching under the felt look?  Do the threads glow under black light?

Great photo!!

What is the medal in first position?

I've gone and now back from the show.

It was nice to peruse the tables like in the old days!  I didn't see anyone exclusively from GMIC, however they might have recognized me and ducked under a medal rack. 

A good representation of the various war eras, with a notable lack of anything East German (not that I was seeking to buy).  I also noticed that there was no dedicated seller of books.  I would have been interested in a few tomes if only because it would save me the shipping costs. 

There were some empty dealer tables and I suspect that those were COVID-related no shows.  I hope the next show doesn't suffer from this pandemic and maybe more participants will be more comfortable in attending.

On 24/07/2021 at 08:32, peter monahan said:

Claudius

 

You had me at 'Richards Bay, Kwa-Zulu-Natal'.  But you lost me again at 'Milwaukee'.

 

In the goood old days - 2019 and before - I attended a semi-annual event in Pennsylvania.  An event in November, 2021 is possible, but when I look at posts to the group who sponsors it, I see a truly frightening number of posts from people who 'don't believe in' Covid, or vaxxing, or masks, or all of these.

 

I and my Canadian fellow border crossers are really wrestling with this one, particulary given the fact that, lets face it, our hobby/hobbies are more likely to attract Trump supporters than Bernie Saun ders supporters, with all that that implies.  I wish you all the best, and hope that you have a healthy, happy visit!  

 

Peter

Hello Peter;

I understand your concern.  Of course, you make two points; the first is regarding COVID and the area's outbreak number.  For that, I looked at the current numbers to compare;

                                              fully vaccinated           cases per 1,000        cases per day

Wisconsin

(Milwaukee County)                      51%                         9.9/thousand               93/day

Canada

(Ontario -for example purposes)  55%                          1.1/thousand              154/day

Wisconsin Coronavirus Map and Case Count - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Canada Coronavirus Map and Case Count - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

The second point is the type of attendees, specifically the Trump supporters vs. the Bernie supporters.  For that I don't intend to get embroiled with either side and will feint off any conversation attempt to tell me how the democrats stole the election or how Socialism would be better for everyone.  I'm not there for a current political discussion.  I'm hoping to browse tables and meet people, both old friends and new ones from this forum.  

I'll be wearing my GMIC pin and Avatar (beware of imposters  ).

I looked it up, one of the sister cities to Milwaukee is Richards Bay, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa.  The distance from there to Milwaukee would be 9,011 miles and expected to be nearly 24 hours in total.

Flight route from Richards Bay Airport (RCB) to General Mitchell International AirportMitchell Field (MKE) - AirCalculator.com

If you are coming from South Africa, you might want to keep this in mind when estimating your arrival day/time. 

Hello;

The second photo close-up appears to be the Imp. Russian Service in the Caucasus cross, 1864.  Or at least, the photographer painted that on. 

Could you also provide a close-up on the medals area especially the throat award.  I can't see it very well, but it kind of looks like a 19th century Order of the Lion and the Sun.

just over a month away....

2 hours ago, paul wood said:

I was offered a decent sum of money to arrange a large production from the faker. 

 

P

Just a quick update;

The contact at the Carl und Liselott Diem -Archiv was most helpful.  He provided me with information that I hope to further explore, however the Archiv will be closed until July 25.  Stay tuned. 

On 24/06/2021 at 12:44, ArHo said:

Interesting: Have you ever had a picture "stolen" from you?

Happened to me - this picture is "mine", basically, I took it and recently sold the original card via Ebay.

I thought it was enough to add something as a copy protection but was wrong. This special seller took my picture (I can prove that it is mine...), cut away most of iit including my copy protection and reproduced it as a postcard. The b*****d.

 

P.S.: Of course I add this "reproduction" for documentary reasons only - please note that this seller produces ww1 and ww2 repros on paper with these typical ragged sides and usually puts (how ironic) some small stuff on it as "copy protection" himself...

This isn't much of solution, but it might get the "Special Seller" attention.  For every photo of yours that he stole and is offering for sale on eBay, you post the exact same photo for sale.  Even copy/paste the special seller's language for your description.  The reason?  Most buyers on eBay are searching ALL items in their category.  They are going to find the duplicate posting and wonder what is going on?  Who has the real photo (if either seller)?  This will throw the bogus photos into disrepute and should dampen the sales price.  Second, the Special Seller may contact you and ask why you are stealing his description and photo for your listing.  He may even want to report you to eBay police.  At this point the irony is complete.  Stealing from thieves is not theft.

You mentioned in your latest post that you use more copy protection materials in the future and sadly i think this is your most practical and logical next step.  

Thank you!

Hello;

Does anyone have the WWI regimental history for Königin Elisabeth Garde Grenadier Rgt. Nr.3?  I am reading a soldier's diary and he calls his unit "Elizabeth Rg." .  From August 1914 forward he mentions the cities he passes through and if they match up with the Königin Elisabeth Garde Grenadier Rgt. Nr.3 it would help confirm the regiment.

Thank you in advance.

On 04/06/2021 at 14:14, JohanH said:

It seems like they have both his diaries and 5000 photos in their archive.

 

So they must have at least one photo that shows his awards.

 

Carl und Liselott Diem-Archiv - Deutsche Sporthochschule Köln (dshs-koeln.de)

 

If you find out anything, please keep us updated! I am curious about what you might find out. 

I intend to contact them.  I just hope they don't think I'm asking because I have a screwball agenda and looking to add to controversial ideas.

13 hours ago, JohanH said:

 

I think you should try to contact the Carl and Liselett Diem Archive and ask them if they know of any photos that shows his medalbar or if they can confirm that he had the Romanian order (just to verify that it really is his medals). 

 

I am going to try and contact the Carl and Liselett Diem Archive.  They might be very helpful in this regard, and maybe they know his military career details as well (rank, unit, etc.)

This is an incredible development!  Thank you JohanH for your research!  

59 minutes ago, JohanH said:

 

Carl Diem

 

I have tried to find a picture of Diem with his medals but no luck. 

I found mention of the Carl and Liselott Diem Archive that may have more photos and information.

Thank you.  PM sent.

22 hours ago, JohanH said:

Hello!

 

Old thread I know.

 

Is the Order of Vasa gold/gilded or silver?

On the pictures it looks like silver which would mean that it's a 2nd class and Dr. Martin isn't the original owner. 

 

Since Dr. Martin received his Vasa order in 1912 it should be made of 18k gold. If I remember correctly they year they changed to gilded bronze to foreigners was in 1924. 

 

Only 196 germans received the Order of Vasa 2nd class knight.

Hello JohanH;

I looked at the medal bar again very closely under a magnifying glass.  It is not gold and it does not look like it was gilded and the gold flaked off over the years.  It appears silver (with the gold lettering and motif in the center).  

Your knowledge on the Swedish regulations casts understandable doubt as to the attributed owner (Dr. Martin). 

But to be clear, from your information, Dr. Martin received the 1st class knight Vasa Order?  And in 1912 or even in 1924 the 1st class would be in Gold/Gold-gilt.  The Vasa Order in this medal bar is clearly a Silver (2nd class).  If Dr. Martin is recorded as receiving the 1st class, could there be any other explanation as to why he would mount the 2nd class his medal bar?  Did he even earn a 2nd class and then later earn the 1st class?

Or is Dr. Martin clearly not the owner of this medal bar and we need to look again at the list of 196 Germans that received the 2nd class Vasa Order and cross-reference it with the list of German functionaries at the 1912 Olympics? 

On 28/05/2021 at 18:15, VtwinVince said:

I saw this one, reverse cloth and pin are a bit weird but on balance looks genuine.

For a non-Frack bar, isn't the pin in wrong direction?

1 hour ago, Mattyboy said:

Luftwaffe Oberst Carl Seber 

 

??

Hello;

I would like to thank everyone for their input, links and information pertaining this medal bar and the gentleman that owned it.  I found all of your insights valuable in addressing this interesting and complex medal bar and its owner.

Hello,

This combination is extraordinary.  Or is it too good to be true?  And if so, is it identifiable?

Ahh, thanks. 

The addition of the coins looks great!