Claudius

I agree with Kev...but I think is good badge. Great in fact! Nice wartime issue.

Does anyone know a dealer/individual that has a pair of Vize-Steuerman shoulderboards for sale?

Or a stamped gilt metal Oberbootsmannmaat rating patch?

Nice document group!

I love the Goeben references. Thanks for showing it.

Tim,

That badge doesn't just look somewhat like the one I own -I had to run to my collection to make sure that mine was still there! It looks exactly like the one you have.

Under the headline "German Jewelers" you will find the thread where I also asked this question. It's to bad there isn't a "Quelle" reference book of german jeweler marks.

-Claudius

What! Are you telling us Igor that the name of this unidentified Cavalier is Brykov Andrey Alekseyevich? That would be outstanding. Slava1stclass has got to like that.

-Claudius

Hello all;

I just haven't seen many Imperial medal bars and I was wondering if anyone would share photos of some of theirs. Since the last one I saw for sale six months ago slipped my grasp I have been waiting for another to come along. Nothing.

I think we could all learn something from seeing a few great examples...

Thanks,

-Claudius

Thank you Rick. I can't find anything on him after the war either. I know he was alive to get the Hindenburg cross and some circumstantial evidence to show he was alive in 1938. I was hoping he found a naval job with rank in the TR and therefore be registered somewhere. (at his age, a desk job) While I know where he was from 10/1916 to 1920, I don't know where/when he was born and when he died or where he was buried.

Chip: Thank you for the further info on the insignia. I have seen the cloth badges around and noticed differences in manufacturing, but I didn't realize they were private purchases for their wool jumpers.

Paul Kutzner

of U-boot UC-20.

UC-20 was a mine-laying type sub, but early on had her mine laying tubes removed and the space was used for a cargo hold. It ran arms and munitions transport missions in the Mediterranean Sea. It's the "famous" uboot that carried a young camel as a gift back from North Africa to the sub base at Pola.

Great! The sailor I am examining was a Oberbootsmannmaat (9/1916). I was told the rank was similar to a Chief Boatswain Mate, but that person was not an expert in naval rank equilivants. The insignia is a dark blue oval cloth with a fouled anchor and the imperial crown above, all in gold-colored thread.

Later he was promoted (10/1918) to Vice-Steuermann.

Chip -is the crossed anchors in gold thread (made of spun gold) or a stamped piece of gold-colored metal on a dark blue oval cloth? And there is no imperial crown over the anchors? Yes, if it isn't too much trouble, could you show me photo of the rank badge and/or shoulderboards.

Rick Research -Thank you for that background information. It is all important as I try to learn what his rank as Oberbootsmannmaat and then Vice-Steuermann would have made him responsible for and what men (if any) were under his command.

Hello;

1) Does anyone know what is the equilivant English rank of "Vice-Steuermann"?

2) What does the Vice-Steuermann insignia look like? Are there any photos of the insignia of a "Vice-Steuermann"?

Thank you for your help,

-Claudius

That's outstanding Darrell! Thank you. I was looking for and answer to this question for some time. It sounds like you know quite a bit about the badge requirements.

Thank you again.

-Claudius

Gentlemen;

I was searching the previous threads for this topic but I couldn't find it. Could someone tell me, or direct me to the thread that thoroughly details;

What were the official qualifications to earn the WWI uboot badge? voyages?/years?/service?

Thank you for your help,

Claudius

Hello,

Just recieved from Her Weitze,a very nice late war "private purchase"non maker marked juncker style Prussian observers badge.Lovelly detail two piece construction,rayed back with weap hole at hinge.

Added pictures from site , but will add to my gallery new pics tommorow.

hope you like.

steve

Very nice. I like the "frosting" on that one. And it looks good in every respect.

Wow. Is this the only way we can tell these apart is because when the faker was making this otherwise highly detailed and refined copy he mistakenly "crossed" the swords wrong. If that is the case, then the only thing that these fakers need to fix is to make sure they put the correct sword on top -from left to right, the "point" to the "handle".

Ick! I am far from being an expert in seperating legit from copies, especially the great copies. But this batch from what I can tell from the photos is really poor. We would all benefit from some close-ups. Even the order the crosses are displayed are incorrect. Such an obvious thing too. Probably never intended to be fakes, just passable copies for a museum somewhere.

While all of this is enlightening. I think Andreas' comments were the most startling to me. I always surmised that when my high bid was run over like roadkill it was by bidders with DEEP pockets. People who are so wealthy and have so much disposable income that it is inconsequential for them to pay "too much" for a lot. As long as it is something rare, and what they wanted.

I am now to understand that my competition is all too mortal and is actually cursed by winning just as much as blessed. Interesting.

very nice. And in the same order?! I like that the rules dictate the order the medals should be worn (if your a full blood prussian), but how some of the other states bend in favor of their home regions.

At least with your guy you can assume he survived the war. I can't be so sure with mine.

back

This is a nice little bar I picked up over 20 years ago at a show. It didn't have the two saxon orders on it but the EK2 was clinging to the end of it. So, just like Charlie Brown's Christmas, I felt sorry for the bar and bought it to deck it out properly. Fortunatly it has clips underneath the ribbons so adding (and presumably removing) medal loops is rather easy. Just thought you would like to see it...

Front

Oh I have NO problem with all the "high end" jeweler-made TWMs having been made (mostly) in the 1920s. They were what was actually WORN for the next Historically Interesting 25 years, after all.

They were made and intended as flashy "show off" design upgrades and no doubt about it at all

they are far more impressive LOOKING than what most were actually awarded FOR.

Though I've had and seen some hard-fought, well-deserved "real" awards for these that are swamped by the post-dated "everybody in the Ottoman Empire on 30.10.18" awards that turn most into glitzy Hindenburg Crosses by comparison.

It may be human nature, but LOOKS should not affect retail price. I would agree wholeheartedly with Ed that the embarassingly icky Turkish ISSUE painted pot-metal bent wire pin TWMs should hold pride of collecting place as the "actual" badges-- but those were SO yucky that any German who had one quickly ditched them for a better looking example--even during the war. The painted cheapos are actually thus much rarer than any of the nifty looking multi-piece silver ones... but even I PREFER the good looking ones.

There is certainly wiggle room for personal tastes, preferences, and fascination--which I share--with the seemingly endless variety that can be found in these lowly awards

but the key is LOWLY.

As an olllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllld collector, I am very very alarmed at what increasingly seems to be a graven-in-stone retail Official Price that has inflated these out of all reason.

Though I would CHEERFULLY follow along if, rationally, the same price inflation was applied equally to the hierarchy of SENIOR Ottoman awards. A TWM--any TWM-- selling for more than a Silver Imtiaz Medal with Sabers Bar is like an EK2 going for the same price as a German Cross in Gold. It just makes no sense.

Heck, for $100,000 at TWM-Retail-Constant-?s I might even consider parting with the Admiral.

The only analogy I can come up with regarding this out of control retail collusion is as if a 1939 Black Wound Badge was suddenly being priced at what a REAL 20 July 1944 one goes for... because they're both WW2 Black Wound Badges.

$100K -SOLD!

(just kidding) I understand this problem first hand with other pieces I have encountered from dealers but could make the leap to buy them because I felt the price was just too high. And that was when I allowed for a 20-25% price hike because of some superlative feature of the medal/badge. For some time now, I believe dealers list prices very high in order to do three things

1) Suggest a premium condition or rarity that the piece really doesn't have.

2) To earn the very highest profit from the sale of an item to a beginner or an un-informed collector and/or

3) Provide the dealer with an image of sophistication, knowledge and importance in the eyes of the collector.

Chances are that the piece remains unsold (as is the item I'm looking at) or it gets sold to someone who is unaware, or does care he paid too much for it (as it has occured with many of items I looked at)

WOW! Just WOW.

Ah....that's why I asked the question.

If someone is going to fake a bar, I was wondering why they wouldn't get the orders in the correct order.

Thanks Heiko!

That's some great work Rick!

Hello;

Anybody else see this bar up for sale? What are your thoughts?

I would think the Peter House order w/swords would be closer to the left. In front of the campaign medals and at least the Centennial medal. Wouldn't it? And the Red Eagle w/o swords would be moved down to the right. Correct?

(For the record. Yes I copied the photo without permission from the owner)

HausOrderPeterBar.doc

Very nice bars. I really like the double award on #1 as well. And #4 has some great devices with four different state represented (besides Prussian). Cool.