Claudius

this is the close up of the square mark...

photo of square mark

photos...

Sorry about the delay in adding all my photos

Imperial Quest: Great detective work there! Thanks for your insights.

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Tale of two clich?s;

At long last, here are photos of two cliche badges I own. They are examples of two different construction types, probably made years apart from each other. After an immediate glace, someone might guess that the one on the right is a fake, however the providence on each is very, very good. I owned the left one for twelve years and was owned 15 years prior by another collector. For the price that was paid at that time, it wouldn't have been worthwhile to fake.

The right one, I purchased ten years ago along with other items from a hate belt. To this day, it was a hate belt that had the most "stuff" on it that I have ever seen before or since. I have photos (film) of what it looked like before it was entirely disassembled. (The subject of preserving or disassembling the belt was not a choice given to me, my only choice was if I wanted to buy certain items.) I even bought the old, decaying belt that badge was affixed to. The badge grooved and marred the leather in a way that only time can. This badge must be a late war product. And from the number and variety of items that were on the hate belt, I would guess that the Allied soldier that created it was a POW guard and "picked" the stuff off the guys as they rolled in. But that, of course, is just a guess. Someday I will have to scan those old film photos and show them in the appropriate thread. Again the price paid for this badge would preclude any profit from producing a fake.

The finely made badge on the left has the square mm or silver mark that this thread was all about. With this, and the evidence of the fine Bav. badge having this mark as well on a high quality piece that looks every bit like silver or silver-plate, I am of the opinion that the make is type of silver mark.

In any event. Please enjoy the photos of the badges.

And the reverse......

Love the badge....except for the one repair it's in pretty good shape.....gotta get em when you can right?

No one else piped in, so I will. I would make the repair...nice enough not to be distracting, but poor enough to be detectable as a later repair and not a period-era repair.

But that's my opinion -in this case. I seldon advocate making "repairs" to medals or bars. But to make a reversible repair to a medal with this kind of trauma I think is understandable. But I'm sure there are other opinions that are worthy of consideration.

I wholly agree. These guys are wearing them on their uniforms in an area that would see the material folding and moving. And those long crosses would be especially vulnerable to breaking. The piece is great and I actually perfer stamped pilot badges to the 2 piece ones. Yeah, I know I go against the crowd, but the stamped badges are the issue pieces from the war years. I like that. [that being said, I wouldn't turn down other pieces, (like the ones I own) I just like the ones that I know are goverment issue and from the war era.]

-Claudius

wow-that is a super bar.

Outstanding Bar!

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I keep going back and forth on my opinion of what exactly it is. This week... I am thinking mm because of something I saw on the Aerodrome forum. It was a Bavarian solid example in brass/tomback which was silver plated...the kicker - there was a square mark on the reverse above the hinge. The photos were really not good enough to form a good/bad opinion, but I thought it was interesting to see on a non silver badge (a first for me).

Hello Imperial Quest;

To add to the body of discussion here; I too have a stamped pilot badge, with this high quality and with this square mark on on the pin. However, mine is a Prussian badge. I have also looked for information regarding it and couldn't find if it was a mm or silver mark. I don't have any photos of it to share -yet.

Now then... you asked "there isn't anything that jumps out as bad". I will have the temerity to point out something, and then I will get my head down for the responses. The cross at the top. It's kind of ...ummmm...short, for a Bav. crown??? What do others that have stamped Bav. badges think?

That is a VERY nice looking Falcon Order. Thanks for showing it.

Greetings;

Everyone is familiar with cross swords devices on ribbon bars. And then there are the various wreaths, crowns and other mini devices but does anyone know anything about mini pilot badges or observers badges on ribbon bars?

Does anyone own one? Can any generalization be made about them when you do find them? Time periods. Pilots in figher units, bomber units or home protection, etc.

Just how rare are they? Have they been faked, or fake ribbon bars constructed from genuine parts?

I haven't run across this kind of device before.

-Claudius

Hello,

And here is a White falcon that will land real soon in Belgium

More once it has landed.

Cordial greetings,

Ah...Yes, please show some more once it has landed. It looks like the White Falcon is roosting with some other friends. Yes? I would love to see the whole bar.

I'll get a photo.

Are the rolls on the GMMM completed?

I also like the badge. I have a observer badge that is similar in-so-far as it also is very well made, and it doesn't have any hallmarks.

When I can, I will post photos of it on this thread. (I also have a cliche pilot badge with a simple square "[]" hallmark on the pin. I would like know who the manufacturer of that was -if known) Will post photos of that as well.

Hello,

I don't have a court jeweler to add, per se... I have a cypher on a piece that I would like to identify the court jeweler (if known).

Were any of the court jeweler's manufacturers of cliche-type (stamped) flight badges? I have one with a "square" on the back of the pin. The obverse has very good detail and the reverse has nearly as good as the front, (it's just concave)

Again the cypher hammered into the pin is a simple square. Tiny enough to fit on the back of the round pin. and nothing else.

And the recruitment of small, pointy-nosed soldiers is quite evident. Any chance of seeing the dachshunds awards and issue fez?

Great photos!

Hello Kev;

I don't like it. I don't like it at all. The quality, the engraving, the hingle well... What do the experts think?

true garbage.

Heiko;

I'm very sorry to hear of this. I will keep my eyes out as well for these bars. And I will inform my collector friends as well. They don't collect Imp. Germ., but they can keep their eyes out as well. If someone tries to sell it in my corner of the world here, I'll let you and the authorities know.

Congratulations Heiko!!

What a great group! It is very rewarding to such a great group recombined, especially the medals that belonged to one man. I see now what you used the money from the sale of your documents.

Excellent! I can't wait until you have it done. Thanks for letting me know.

-Claudius

Oh, guys,

for the W?rttemberg Wilhelmskreuz......has nobody a roll????? I have!

Gustav Klein, Oberleutnant der Reserve in the Bodenseeflottille got his Wilhelmskreuz with swords 15.April 1916.

Best regards

Daniel

BTW, this roll will be available soon.....among others like W?rttemberg Military Merit Order, golden Military Merit Medal, Cross of Merit......not only Ricky is working hard.....

Daniel;

Am I to understand correctly that you are working on (amoung other rolls) the roll for the Wurttemberg Golden Military Merit Medal (WGMMM)? That would be great!

Claudius,

I read the word as "Namenszuge", which in this case would translate as monogram or perhaps more precisely, cypher (cipher), that is, the symbol representing the royal name. Most likely the stylized "WR" ringed with a wreath and surmounted by a crown.

Chip

Thank you Chip!!! Perhaps the translations I had were too literal. I'm glad that you could recognized the other, precise meanings for this word.

Have you ever seen this pin before? Are there variations?

Thank you again.

Here it is...

This copy doesn't show the paper color and the embossed letter head in the far left corner, but here you can read it for yourself. Both translations I had, state that this is indeed a "signature" pin, not a monogram pin.

Blume_pin_badge_doc..pdf