Stogieman

The thing I find very interesting is that the mark on the GC seems to be a mis-strike... but quality control was not feeling very pro-active that day? Is there any possibility that the mark was applied at some time other than when the cross was made?

I have no trouble accepting stencil-based application of the eagle. That would not cause a "shadow" aroound the entire image though. "Batch made" might be true for a number of examples, but are you saying that every single example of the RAO2 by Wagner was made at one time over the entire history of each different variation/era??

Anybody see this one pop up this AM? Anyone know the history of this piece?

Photo courtesy of Detlev Niemann, Hamburg

Grandcross of the Iron Cross 1914 [4753] Sold State II

Iron core, fine silver frame. width 61 mm. Very good details and quality. This cross is illustrated in several reference books as period second issue or museum display cross. With nice ribbon.

OK, so there are two different "light" DKiG, purported to be made by Zimmerman. One reputed to be a fake, one not?

Is there anyone able to make a photo comparison between the suspect DKiG (light-20) with this one sold by Detlev Niemann this AM??

Never give up. I've had boxes show up longer than that. Sometimes, the PO just loses stuff. Then they find it again and send it on its' way!

it's weird though... I have had Liaket medals on ribbon bars with no devices, battle/saber bars, and swords alone... three different ways of wearing the same ribbon!

After the Prussian version, the most frequently encountered one by me has been the Saxon one. Usually on a snow-white ribbon. Two versions available, Albert & Albert

Where does this one fit into the picture? We have what was described as a 20 maker DKig, lightweight, 4 hollow rivets, reverse engraved w. recipients name, copy of soldbuch, etc.

Is this one the same as the one suspected of being fake?

Photo courtesy of Niemann-Hamburg

I'd like to make a suggestion. Tom, many of us have no clue what we're discussing here, but have a serious interest in how this plays out on moral, ethical, curiosity or whatever grounds. You're going way too fast for us students and we're entering into a debate over what constitutes real vs. fake as a broad-spectrum topic as opposed to a specific topic RE the pieces that started the thread.

Could we please table the discussion until some decent photographs of originals, suspect and outright fakes can be placed out here to make this a little easier for us neophytes to follow?

I know that many of you know exactly what's being discussed here, but for many of us, we need to see some examples of what's OK, what is suspected as not OK and a comparison thereof.

Thanks!!

Here's my philosophy with "deviations"........ if I see one, I don't sweat it too much. 2 or 3 that have never been seen before, makes me stop and look real hard and start asking many questions. A dozen or more on dealer sites within 6 months. Start thinking "brake lights". I'm not ready to scream fake, I'd like to see a lot more pictures, a lot clearer pictures and a lot more examples of it first. Call me a fool, but I've tried real hard to keep the paranoia out of my collecting. Maybe that's why I never really wanted a DK or RK......... OK, well maybe one in silver.....

Well Brian, my philosophy usually is find one deviation........ I don't worry too much. But if a dozen show up on eBay or "dealer" sites in the next 6 months......... well, what can you say to that? What I find exceptionally interesting is that the commander grades of the PCO & RAO seem to languish on German dealer sites... even ones with swords. And every major auction has 3-6 RAO's in mint condition that are not touched by (assuming, yes) the most discerning collectors of same in the world. It gives me pause.

Since these were not "batch" made, I expect minor differences. A "shadow" around the eagle?? Never seen that, or if I have, never noticed it. is there one around yours Brian??

Thought I heard "Urdu"......... you and my sister are some of the few that can communicate in that dialect. An impressive group and heck of a paper trail. Interesting...... very interesting......

No, I think the 2 eagles are very different. I did not toss the piece, only expressed concern and a question as to where do we go from here. I still stand on my initial "gut call" that it's probably OK. Having said all of this, I'm still more leery with Andreas reporting a new series of fakes.

Discipline....... did someone say discipline?? I thought Mr. Crisp was in charge of discipline...... Nail that man's foot to the deck!

(Remember! The ancient superstition that woman are unlucky on ships is now proven scientific fact!)

(James Mason, Yellow Beard The Pirate)

I think Rick & I calculated out once that it was 85-90% for actual flying personnel...... a rather severe figure. varies by year, by type of personnel, etc.

The first one is interesting as it is housed in the typical 1930's "Treue um Treue" vonHindenburg case. A rare case......... Now, for a cookie.........

......... who can explain why this 1930's case holds this rare group and has no Hindenburg Cross??

HHmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I had a Bavarian SBM group to a Baker...... in it were multiple Bavarian Prince Alphonse Shooting Badges... they were beautiful and had matching documents. very cool stuff. He also had a document for the award of a stein (of all things) from the official Bavarian Baking Society! This guy kept everything!

Hi Tom, to bring me up to speed....... both the klein and dot piece are considered/accepted as fake? or only the dot piece with the klein cross debated still?

I have heard of "lightweight" DK's, were these made by multiple makers, or strictly Zimmermann?

If made by multiple makers, do other maker's two pieces differ significantly in construction, or strictly in weight??

Thanks!

Final foto, this pix IMO is not too great, but I can see differences rather clearly. However, both pieces could very well be authentic, or not. Again, not the same piece, but not my area of expertise.

Next foto, series of "20" maker marks...... no idea what is what, Tom & darrell will have to point these out for the rest of us.

Additional foto, hinges.

Please note, in my eyes, even with these very fuzzy pictures, I see way more consistency in these two hinges than perhaps others do. But, note the very sharp contrast in the shape of the "star" points immediately above both upper corners of the hinge block......... the hinge, the mounting block and the pin are so close impossible to call, but the "star" very big differences.

Is it possible for one maker to have two very different stars?

OK, here's a series of photos provided by Tom. I'd like to preface a further discussion on this controversy with a couple of points/observations/recommendations.

A) Whatever "baggage" anyone is carrying, please leave it at the door when you come here. Is it a perfect world? Certainly not. However, we can all conduct ourselves as Gentleman when discussing even a difference of opinion. Or we can certainly learn to. Please keep this in mind when participating on this forum.

B) In my opinion after reviewing these montage shots, the two crosses are different pieces.

C) I do not believe these images to be of "diagnostic quality". I would not venture to even attempt to infer authenticity of either DKiG based on these pictures. I'm pretty good with photo interpretation and have made it a "required" skill. I couldn't work with these pix.

D) I'm not a DK/RK guy. My opinions are based strictly on the pix provided.

So......... enjoy the debate and for Jiminy Cricket's sake, get some better photos to work with before we go diving into a mud puddle. Let the civil discourse commence!

I agree Joe, I would love to have this fellows awards in my sweatly palms.........

Now, the fun part....... the RAO Medal mounted is pretty darn hard to find. The Lubeck is a typical "Radiator Paint job" now confirmed as WW1 era....... and the Gold (gilt) Sax-Altenburg is pretty darn hard to find as well. Note the classic weird 1930's ribbon on the Sax-Altenburg piece........ you can be assured that this is one of the imperial ribbons that is period, but will glow like crazy under UV light! Just a case in point that there are period pieces that glow!

And another one.