ekhunter

Never seen that one before either. Very nice cross! You'll never convince me that you are not teleporting back in time to 1918 to find all of these rare pieces.

As far as I know the Knight Cross was made to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross. Then it was add the Oak Leaves, Swords and finally the Diamonds on the Oak Leaves and Swords (And in the end the golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds), to the Knight Cross.

My first question is: Was the Grand Cross a higher award than the Knight Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds?

Who was the highest awarded soldier in WWII? Rudel or Goering?

Was the German Cross in Gold a requariment to win the Knight Cross? Some books say that the German Cross was an award to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Knight Cross and other that it was an independent award. What is true?

Was it harder to win the KC after the making of the German Cross as an award between the Iron Cross First Class and the KC?

Thanks for reading and for the answers.

Kind regards,

Edgar

My opinion is the Grand Cross is higher, and I think this is the way it was supposed to be in the hierarchy order. Had the war continued, some more os w/d in gold may have been awarded, but I doubt any more Grand Crosses would have been awarded.. If I recall correctly, only 7 Grand Crosses were awarded in WW I. Several more men than 7 were awarded the Pour le Merit. The Knight's Cross essentially took the place of the Pour Le Merit, and subsequent oakleaves, etc. To answer your other question, and once again my opinion, but it had to be Rudel. Goring earned his Grand Cross by his connections to Hitler, initial success from military campaigns that he planned, and his own reputation from the Great War (Pour le Merit). Rudel earned his on the battlefield. I think you ask anyone and they would say that what Rudel did, and how he did it, he had the respect of all, and earned it, unlike Goring. Lastly, you could win the Knight's Cross w/o recieving the German Cross.

Never heard of them. They appear in books as genuine. Scary pieces these Flochs aren?t they?

You guys knew it was Floch but you let me discover it for myself uh? Good teachers!

Thanks again for the lesson. I hope, too, my learning curve isn?t so flat.

Scary is right, but not if you know what to avoid. You can go to MCF or WAF and look at examples of Floch's and read about their origin. In a Nutshell, Floch is a man who made or makes repro Iron Crosses. Their is more than enough reading material available about him. I believe most us us have been Floched once or twice somewhere along the line..

Rich,

To me is more than that. I am new to this forum and to other forums, and for me is all about sharing, discussing, and above all, learning.

When I posted the picture of my cross I truly believed it was good one, and I wanted to share it here. When you questioned the authenticity of the cross, I asked why it was so. The replies given to me did not fully satisfy me, especially when I compared my cross to crosses described in books such as the one I mentioned before to Bill. For example, a low date. Well, there are good crosses like that?? The pin where are crosses with similar pins?? The hallmark? and so forth.

I do not collect WWII stuff and it was sufficient to me to compare this cross, which was given to me several years ago, to those shown on books like Geissler?s

It wasn?t until Bill came up into the discussion and mentioned the pin, the hinge, and the clasp, that I began to really look further, especially going over the multiple threads in this and other forums.

I am now convinced that this cross is not good. It has all the characteristics of what is called a Floch, which by the way, I haven?t heard of this before. I believe it is not mentioned in the books I have, and many books actually present Floch crosses as real (including Previtera?s Iron Time)

Lesson learnt!

I thus rectify to you guys. This cross is not genuine. Thanks for the discussion Bill and Rich, and I apologize for any trouble I may have caused.

George

George it's no reason to apologize for I don't think you haven't troubled anyone. We've all been there. Very few in this field have gone through time w/o getting burned somewhere along the way. I can show you a Cave Creek Special or a sunburst Flock I got burned on, that's just to name a few. It's the nature of the beast, but it's part of it, and is the beauty of this forum and others. You can have something checked out before you buy it if you are not sure. The books don't always get it right. I've got a L/63 Gold Wound badge to prove that point, and I imagine you could find a few "Rounders" out there that, once again, were in a book as legit. Keep it going, real Deschler's are out there, just keep looking and reading. Russel

Reverse

K.A.G.'s with that type core are getting really hard to find. Once again, that is a nice cross!

Thank you, George, for the reference; I shall have to consult this volume.

The only argument I can put forward is that the pin, hinge, and clasp configuration of your cross does not match/resemble the configuration of other known authetic Deschler's illustrated here and elsewhere.

I agree with Bill about the pin, hinge, clasp. Definately not Deschler.

Hallo Gentlemen

Old and "Dear" Friends, the one that features at the start of the thread finally sold on Ebay for 293.09 Euros

Kevin in Deva

THat was cheap for that cross! These are almost impossible to find these days. I've seen and handled five in person in 20 years, and I have 3 of them now. Thanks to many of y'all, we now know that several sit in collections out there, and maybe, just maybe, they might come on the market again one day. I've decided to make a video tape for my wife and daughter of my collection with descriptions and prices of each. If, or should I say when something happens to me and if my daughter doesn't give a damn about the crosses, then I guess they would hit the market while I am rolling over in my grave. I know some of those SNAKES, I mean "dear friends"of mine would never come to my house after I am gone and offer my wife well below market value for my crosses. HAA! One of those guys just came to mind. I better hurry up on that video tape! Seriously, I hope some hit the market, maybe some will just get tired of looking at them. Hint; Joe!

Hello Bill

My only other thought is possibly a Deumer. Their 1939 EK1s also have similar pin, hinge and clasp to the WW1 EK that you posted here.

Outside of this, in my opinion, the only other contenders would be Klien & Quenzer, Carl Wild, (although the clasp on their pieces that I have seen is quite distinct and different to that on yours), and Junkers.

Hopefuly some of the other forum members will chip in, as I dare say that someone has 1939 EK1 who's hardware on the reverse matches yours.

I'm late on this discussion, but I believe that Bill's first example is a Deumer. The crown on the core lacks the detail, but this can be due to wear and tear of the core over time. However, IMHO the hinge, clasp and pin are distinctly Deumer, even down to the way Deumer tapers the tip of the pin. it does lack the distinctive "pigtail" clasp, that many look for, but not all of the Deumer's had this either. Also, the clasp, being higher up from the bottom, is very similiar to the cased one that one Detlev had for sale. If I were lucky enough to be buying it, I would assume it was a Deumer....Just MHO. Russel

reverse

I love these pillow-back crosses from AWS. I love the finish and pin on Joe's. Not quite a needle pin, something a little more. Joe, I don't have one like this one, but wish I did, if for any reason you ever want to move it, please don't forget me.

This is a prinzen spange with square 5, thoughts on this one?

[attachmentid=46684] [attachmentid=46685]

I don't really collect these, but did have these 2nd class spanges in my collection - any thoughts to share on these medals?

[attachmentid=46682][attachmentid=46683]

Glenn - See attached photo ... is the one on the left like the one you are talking about?

[attachmentid=46680]

Tornister straps/buckles could cause wear in a lot of places. There was an awful lot of marching to and from the front.

Great photo, really shows how the wear and tear could take place, amazing that more crosses aren't in worse shape.

Werner and Sohne, Berlin as Ekhunter states and a spot on example. Always desirable and nicer in the hand than this pic suggests. I love 'em. I had one with a fluted pin once but have not seen another since.

I love these crosses. I have a pillow back AWS with, I think, the pin you are talking about. I'll try to post later.

Jens,

I do not think it is "just another" EK 1. I believe mine is a almost an exact match, including the wear on the lower arm! I have a theory on this wear point, most issue wound badges are made of steel. If you look at most photos of the EK 1 and wound badge worn together, the wound badge is worn directly below the EK1. During the course of normal service during wartime, I believe the wound badge and EK would meet and rub together creating the wear on the lower front arm of the EK 1. Since the steel is harder than the silver, the silver would become worn, not the steel. Here is the obverse of mine. I keep forgetting that digital will make every speck of microscopic dust look huge.

Dan Murphy

Good possibility. What would cause wear at all four of the arms? I have one that is worn at all four arms on the entire surface. I'll see if I can post it tonight. I'm thinking a lot of wear against maybe leather straps with buckles over a long period of time. I don't know, but very interesting theory.

I remember when I started out in Imperial and went to the few Max shows in Baltimore MD (that should date me) I was buying pinback EK1s for $80 and screwbacks were $100, maybe $125 for a really nice one. My Victoria DRGM screwback was only $80 because the threads were worn out. This is when I got the majority of my EK1s and EK2s. I remember seeing a guy with a huge wire ring that must have had 200 EK2s on it. No ribbons, but they were $15 each. Times have changed and we will surely never see that again.

Dan Murphy

How true! You must be talking about early 80's. I had a chance once to buy a box full of 2nd classes, no ribbons, at $20 a pop, must have been 100 in there. I was mostly into Lugers then and passed. Stupid me. The prices on the rarer crosses have gone through the roof. Crazy field we are in, rare to find a steal anymore, but sometimes! However, I think these are the best times because of the Internet, it is like a show everyday, unfortunately, you got to pay to play.

please see "1914 EK1,TR manufacture" on the second

page of posts under The Imperial Iron Cross.

mine is a screwback.

600 E????? WHEW!

joe

Joe, I was actually looking at the one from Detlev and then went back and looked at your 1914 L/12. I probably should have posted this thread in the other Iron Cross Section. I love yours, and I started actually talking about how much I like yours, forgetting it was yours. Got a newborn at home, still in Zombie mode. Long night last night! Anyway, these are rare!

I've seen it......600? I don't have a Juncker EK in my collection,but I wouldn't spend so much money for a '39 EK!

Micha

That's a lot of money now, but since you just don't ever see these, then what will one have to pay if one becomes available in say 5 years? I don't know. They obviously don't last too long when offered at that price. I once said I would never pay over $100.00 for a nice uncased 1st class (TR or Imperial). Unfortunately I passed on a lot of great medals in the 80's that would cost at least twice as much as that now. I don't have one (Junker) either, as these are rare birds, and would really like to have one, especially in that good of shape. I guess it boils down to how bad you want something. Anyway, the search continues! Good to hear from ya! Russel

Detlev had a 1914 1st class marked L/12 and made during the Third Reich that sold this morning. It was Sweet! Once again I overslept.

Hallo Gentlemen,

unusual variation of the EK First Class 1914 for offer on Ebay Germany:

http://cgi.ebay.de/EK-I-sehr-seltene-Varia...1QQcmdZViewItem

Any thoughts

Kevin in Deva

This is a so called "waffle back" or "pillow back" pinback by AWS. Very very rare! With the "needle pin". If I didn't have one exactly like this one, I would be bidding and salivating all over my keyboard. Well, actually I'm still salivating a little bit. You usually don't see rare (real) stuff like this on E-bay. You can find a picture of mine on MCF in the Imperial section under "Pillow backs"'. Good luck on this one! This would make a great addition to anyone's collection.

Do you believe in the Muffin man? A lot of thought went into the fact of rusting the front, while polishing the back. Some fakers can be really stupid.

I don't like it, it is just the not the quality I would expect for a decoration like this. Most of the Diamonds winners were generals or field marshalls, men that could afford the best. Since all of these men were in uniform, in positions of responsibility during war time. There was not a lot of time for attending balls and such in mufti. Any such miniatures would most likely be made post war when they were out of uniform. Of course the swastika could not be worn at that time. Sorry.

Dan Murphy

I agree. The quality just isn't there for a wartime piece, and post war you would have to have an oakleaf center, not swaz on your decorations.

helmut weitze in hamburg uncovered a crate of mint,

unissued BHMayer EK 1's, cased.

as i recall, he was asking about $200 per when he brought them back.

they were from behnd the iron curtain, but i am not

certain where they were found specifically.

hope this helps.

joe

Thanks Joe. I had heard of Helmut's discovery and connection to the story. The version I had heard was that he had gone to Russia to get the case of crosses from someone who had contacted him, but from whom is the question? We all know how stories go, though. So if anybody knows "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey likes to say, then please feel free to chime in. If only someone had bought them all at the time for $200.00 a piece. One would be wealthier and wiser, for they go for much, much more now!

What? Doesn't everyone have at least this many 2nd classes. I wish!. I've seen this photo before, somewhere, with the same Russian museum story. It would be a sight to see. They all look rather minty too, at least from a distance. While this may be a little "off topic", but does anyone know where the so called "Russian Horde" of minty Mayer's came from? I know the story about how they made their way back onto the market, but I'm curious how they made their way to Russia, I"m curious if it was some high ranking Russian officer, that maybe took them from a storage facility, or what? I mean, that many crosses, same manufacturer, all mint! To the best of my knowledge, all of the ones that I've seen have been mint and have been cased. Any help on the story will be greatly appreciated.

Tom, great photos for comparison. Some of these differences in the cores are quite a bit when you really look at them and think about it.