ekhunter

Since I have been collecting quite a few 1914 EKII's I have just started to study them closely but am no nearer to understanding them.While a few makers are pretty consistent with their cores and frames,a lot use other manufacturers parts and stamp them with their own mark even large manufacturers like K.A.G and KO....why?...I haven't a clue!

If KO and K.A.G. can have more than one core,I don't see why not SW can't either.

Good point Dave! I concur. The wartime crosses were manufactured for at least a 5 year period, and as we all know, things change. I think several manufacturers changed their cores over the years for one reason or another. AWS, for one, used different cores over the years. Why, I don't think anybody really knows the exact answer to that one. One can look at a WWII cross and usually at a glance, say it was this manufacturer, or that one. The Imperial Crosses are just a little harder. These variances, however so slight sometimes, is why the Imperial crosses are so unique, and in my honest opinion, are much more fun to collect.

Wondering also what era you guys would place this one in the scheme of things...

Marshall

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I would venture to say not issue, probably a little later, like the 90's, that's 1990's. Could be a little later than that.

Andreas Thies sold a prinzen EK2 by Rothe in the original case, with the manufacturer's gold stamp in the case lid, in his December 2002 auction. The sale included EKs (among other things) from the Vern Bowen collection and from the collection of the late BDOS President Willi Waldwogel. You can see the rather large (4 MB) PDF file here, but the photos are very grainy:

http://www.andreas-thies.de/pdf/herbst02/A..._2002_Teil2.pdf

The Rothe prinzen EK is lot 206. You may still be able to buy a copy of this catalog.

Tim

Whoa Nellie! That was a big fuzzy file. Eyes still hurting. What an incredible group of I.C.'s for sale. Beautiful Imperial medals. This was the same type of case for a second class that was in Privetera's book. I wonder if it was the same one, and if the cross was marked? I've never seen (in person) a Rothe & Neffe cross. It has long been my belief that they may have made cases for I.C.'s or something to that extent for I.C.'s. I hope others that may know something more chime in. The hunt for a Rothe & Neffe has been like the hunt for the Holy Grail for me. I hope they exist, but I have my doubts, I would love to see a "cross" from Rothe & Neffe. Maybe that was one! The hunt continues! Thanks a ton, Tim.

Thanks Marshall!

It's interesting that both are with the Austrain fold ribbon. I was once told that these blued steel prinzen EKs were made by Rothe. I don't know this for sure. Maybe someone here knows.

Looking forward to Toby's better pics.

Tony

I'm still looking for proof of any I.C. made by Rothe! If you know of one, please let me know.

Seems to me we just saw more than one type of EK1 with a round pin.

Nice grouping Mike! That's the most round pins I've seen together. It's like visiting a museum today. I knew of the round or needle pins on the AWS crosses, but these other two, Sweet! I'm a little bit confused here though, Was Micha trying to say that he only knew of one round pin maker on one piece items, or only one maker that made round pins? If the latter is the case, then Mike deep sixed that theory, and the so called Godet example shown earlier appears to be a three piece, at least from the photo, so a little clarification would be nice. Thanks, Russel.

pretty sure that's what I just said...... cross with a sham (read that as fake, misapplied, in a manner to deceive, etc.) mark.

That might make the mark a sham, the cross damaged goods..... but it doesn't change the fact that the cross itself, might just have been a real one, once upon a time........

I agree with you on that one. However whoever is doing this is obviously trying to get a premium for an average cross at best, if real.

From the back, it looks very nice, I don't have a problem with the core, other than the softness of the detail. However, having said this, I do not believe it to be a Godet, but rather a legit cross that someone has enhanced with the mark...... I don't think the cross is a sham guys, just the mark

Stogieman, no disrespect meant, and maybe it's just me, but if someone takes a cross from another manufacturer, and tries to enhance it with a "mark" from a different manufacturer, then that cross to me is a sham. Maybe I'm anal about it, but that's just me. This cross is being passed off as a Godet, and I don't think it is. IMO--Sham job.

As far as the core is concerned, it's IMO that this is not a Godet core. The caps of the "W" look too thin, and take a look at the jewels on the bottom of the crown, I don't think this is Godet core. I think someone is making these somewhere now. Just my opinion, I would pass on this one if given the chance. Maybe my loss, but better safe than sorry. Just don't like it!

This is a new one for me. Hopefully, someone can I.D. it accurately for you. Great detail, if it is legit, it's a very, very, rare bird.

Hi Marshall,

Thanks for your comments.

What do mean by flaw on the beading? Which part is the beading? Sorry for my English...

Too bad that I don't have the Iron Time with me, because I would be eager to check... perhaps you can post the pictures of your cross. That would be great!

Ciao,

Claudio

Claudio, the beading is between the outer rim and the core. The raised ribbed part. Yes, it does appear to have die flaws, which is the solid lines between or on top of the ribs. Don't worry, no big deal. I looked at one of mine before I headed to the beach and it looks the same. I'll post it when I get back next week. Great cross, and like I said probably between 1820 something and 1840. I would consider this a period piece compared to an issue piece, and I would get every one of them made during this period that I could..

IC Prinzengr?sse, front & back:

Claudio, Prinzen crosses are greatly over rated. Not much value to them. Therefore, if you would ever be interested in moving these, I will be more than welcome to take them off your hands. Seriously, I love Prinzen crosses! That is a nice pair you have there. The offer still stands though.

I like it! Nice typical Deschler pin with a nice deep L/10 stamp to this one. You gotta like this one!

Nice! The wide flange 2nd's were said to be as early as the late 20's. Anywhere in that range is a safe bet. Note: That the oakleaves and date are similiar to "Zook's Posting", however, his rim doesn't appear to be as wide.

If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, well, you know the rest. I see no one commented on the 1870. Both of these crosses are bad. The bad Junkers wanna be has been around for a while. Rears it's ugly head ever so often.

Thought I had it, fixing to rattle off a DRGM #, but noticed the 9's were a little different. Now I'm really curious!

I sent you an email back Russel,have you received it?

Dave

Sorry Dave either I did not recieve it, or I acccidently deleted it while deleting a hundred others. If it isn't too inconvenient, could you please send me another. Thanks, Russel

Sorry, scanned photos of Spange's and I tried to attach photos. Didn't happen, sent e-mail to Moderator to clarify situation. Will try to post later!

Hi ekh,

You are correct imo, the Prinzen on P196 is a Meybauer. Micha was talking about the twin cased examples on P201 though. Imo it is clear enough that they are NOT the same as Dan's example - the "4" on Dan's example is unique for me so far, with the top of the 4 very open and the vertical arm almost straight. Both of the "4" on the Previtera book exampels are more typical of EKs with only a slight separation at the top of the "4".

One more question regarding the silver marks. As far as I know, Austria used a number system inside the Dianakopf (1 = 950/1000, 2 = 900/1000, 3 = 800/1000, 4 = 750/1000), so why is there a German style "900" stamp on the pin??

For Rick, Budapest was a P (for Pest) between 1967 and 1872.

Regards

Mike

Mike, I don't have my Iron Time book with me, but I think the crosses that you refer to were cased screwbacks. However, no reverse photos are shown. Micha and I have discussed in PM's in the past about the Rothe and Neffe's. Neither he nor I have seen one. I've seen AWS' and Meybauers' called Rothe & Neffe's. If anybody has one, or one that they think may be a Rothe & Neffe, then please post it. I hope they do exist, I've just never seen one, ever. You would think on all of the military forums that are out there, that some collector somewhere would have shown one. Like I said earlier, nice cross, unique pin, but a Rothe & Neffe?

Yep let's see 'em! Standard,Prinzen,mounted,unmounted,ribbon bars,boxed...packets whatever,post them here.

I'll start with a unmarked Deumer Prinzen.

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So here's my question again-Are Rothe&Neffe EKs known? The two EKs in Previtera's book(both in one case) are hard to judge-from what I can see they are shurly Eks made in the 20ies.So it's posssible that R&N was "just" a retailer? I like the Ek shown in this thread and would like to have it in my own collection-but is it really Rothe&Neffe? Hard case.......

Micha

I thought that the cross that Previtera called a Rothe & Neffe was actually a Meybauer. It is a pretty cross with a unique hinge and pin, but a Rothe & Neffe?

I also found one I have marked L/4 and another one unmarked. I'm going to try to post these tomorrow night, I don't know that much about them to say for sure that they are Pre-45. The one with the 5 inside of the square box is unusual. If anyone knows anything about these, it will be greatly appreciated.

@ekhunter: Yes, the non-combatant Hindenburg will identify the EK as the rarest of all EKs.

@Rick: The Imme-Hindenburg is made of bronzed steel. I think we can be sure by 100% that his EK is "the one" since the germans were very correct in awarding the Hindenburg crosses usually after the entries in the Milit?rpass (if I am correct) and so someone who only heard shooting at the range will never get the combatant HC.

I must of had tunnel vision on the ek and the ribbons, just noticed the missing swords next to it. Now I understand. Nice Ribbon Bar! Never seen one like this before! I learn something new all the time. Thanks!

Here's my L/13 Maker Marked guy:

Did they make prinzen ek 2's with four prongs on the back and a maker's mark of a number 5 inside of a square? I have one of these and I'm not not sure if it is real. Will try to post later. Thanks.

Black backing. The medal bar is 100% genuine and passed all "tests". I never saw the maker "Jmme" on a Hindenburg cross before! I only know it from WW2 Luftwaffen badges...

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't get it! Do the other medals indicate a non-combatant? Please educate me here.

Here is the back, without mm.

The corners and the dipping 3 is a dead give away.