ekhunter

So what is the attitude of collectors to such a piece? Still genuine although not as desirable I would guess. Third Reich era 1914 crosses have been considered genuine, although many of thier recipients would have been around to order them as replacements. Where is the line drawn, as any post 1945 crosses are not deemed as genuine even if they were made by wartime firms. What would something like this be worth. I for one would like to have one as a variant in my collection.

You make an excellent point here. "Where is the line drawn"? I guess the answer is up to each individual collector. I just bought a Deumer 1914 1st class made during the Third Reich and didn't think twice about purchasing it, or the fact that it was made 10 to 20 years after the war ended, however, I would never knowingly buy a Third Reich 1st class made during the 50's or 60's. Kind of a strange way of thinking, if you really think about it! Now you really got my brain fried too early in the morning. Thanks a lot! Seriously, I guess it's just an individual thing!

Typical KO. Nice Cross!

Thanks Darrell for showing, its a beauty.

Hardy

Agreed, a true beauty!

I`ve head that F.Orth used the same frame, too.

True, Orth was known to use Souval frames, but note the dipping '3'.

I too was part of that discussion, and I still contend that it is a unmarked Godet. Nevertheless, it is one that I would love to have in my collection.

Nice Cross. Definately a good move on your part.

That also appears to be the rarer maker marked variant "L/11" that isn't in a box. In a sense you could say these are both relatively uncommon examples, that is the double marked Zimmermann and the Deumer. Tough choice; I like them both, but I would probably choose the Deumer inasmuch as I already have a double marked Zimmermann. . .

And what a nice double marked Zimmermann Bill has! Nice catch on the L/11, totally missed that one! That makes me feel like saying what the heck, and buy um both! I say go for it he you can. I can spend other people's money so easily.

ok here is reverse.....

Thanks for your opinion Russel much appreciated!

O.K. that is the flat catch variety of the Deumer, and is a good one. However, from the photo it appears that it has a little wear to it, and the 11 appears worn off some, so I would say it is a little salty itself. I wouldn't say from appearance sake that the Deumer was in that much better shape overall than the Zimmermann. I doubt you are going to get a Cross cheap enough from a dealer to turn around and sell it for a nice profit. Maybe! You can PM with the price if you want, and I'll tell you if it's in the ballpark or low or high, whatever. Dealers are generally in the ballpark. So if you are going to keep just one, I personally would go for the double marked Zimmermann, but then again that would greatly depend on how much more he wanted for it. Sounds confusing I know, but hopefully this helped some. R

....I am thinking of buying both these items and choosing one and selling the other. I am a beginner collector of German medals and am learning stuff all the time, like buying fakes when I very first started!! They are both from a dealer of these things and both state "original" so am confident (i think????) on originality.

I guess what I am asking is: what would be more desirable/higher end item to an EK collector, double marked but a bit salty OR in vgc with a single mark. The double marked is slightly more in price but negligible in the wider scheme of things.

Thanks

Rob

Rob, I would definately like to see a picture of the reverse of the Deumer before commenting. Even honest dealers make mistakes, so being called an original by a dealer doesn't necessarily mean so sometimes. The Zimmermann looks good, and a double marked Zimmermann is not that common, but you do see them occasionally. They do get a little more for the double marked pieces. As far as what piece or pieces to purchase, it's really just a personal preference thing. Some like minty, and some like salty, I personally like somewhere between the two. Russel

Hi~

I have deliberated over these 2 EKs? hard to decide so 2nd opinions are most welcome!

The EK on red background is MM L/11 and looks in good nick the other EK has some small rust around the swas and a touch of rust on left arm but is double marked 20 & L/52.

Not sure which one? advice from more knowledgeable people than myself on this subject would be most grateful.

Thanks EuRob

Not sure what you are asking. The one on the right is a C.F. Zimmermann, and the one on the left appears to be a Deumer, would like photos of the reverse before rendering opinion though. Are you thinking of buying or selling one of these? Russel

Thanks for the up close shots of the pin and hinge assembly. That's some really detailed photos. I think that eliminates the pin replacement theory, so now, deductively, we have a very rare pin variant that everyone that collects Meybauer's or Iron Crosses in general will be looking for. Damn you for adding one more to my list. Great cross, if you ever get tired of it, you can PM me. Russel

Seeing all of these reminded me that I have a 1939 Meybauer, had forgot all about it. Micha has some really nice ones. I have to agree with him on the pin on J Temple Wests' 1914, it is either a replacement, or a ultra rare variant that I've never seen before.

Isn't this an early one?

[attachmentid=50779][attachmentid=50780]Larger, but fuzzy pictures of the same.

[attachmentid=50778]Bill, I remember you once posted a 1st class where the upper arm was sloped to one side. I commented on it, and never got around to posting mine like it. I don't know if this was a faulty die, or happened in the process of vaulting the cross, either way, this cross has significant sloping to the top. Unusual.

[attachmentid=50770][attachmentid=50771]This is my unmarked AWS. The screw appears to be a little different than y'alls in material.

[attachmentid=50767][attachmentid=50768]I've got one just like Daniels' These really are unigue crosses. Bill, this is the one that I told you about that a family friend took off of a German soldier in N. Africa. I've got the cross displayed in a case with the family friend's dog tags. Makes it even more unigue to me.

Russel,have you got a complete one?I was searching thru my files but unfortunately I didn't find a complete one.....shame one me! So if one of the gentlemen here is the lucky owner of a complete AWS screwback.....please post some good shots!

Micha

Yes, I do have a complete one and will try to post pictures later.

Micha,

You have two very beautiful crosses there (and the cases don't hurt either ). I have to say I have never seen that standing hinge variation before. I had expected it would be the regular hinge on its end, but this is a totally different hinge / pin system. I know we have heard much of some manufacturers supplying parts to other firms. Do you think that perhaps they did not get their shipment of hinges from a supplier and had to make them from sheetmetal? And then had to modify the pins by adding that silver "stop"?

Dan Murphy

I guess I 'm lucky, because I also have a standing hinge type pin variation. This one is only the third one I've seen like this. I posted a picture of mine on MCF a few months back. I have to say once again, Micha has hit 'gold' with these.

I love these particular crosses. They are truly great works of art. Unusual that both of these two AWS' are missing their backing plates. That Micha does have a knack for finding rare crosses. Good job!

But you did reiterate. Yes, it is the one from Detlev's update. One of the few times I was faster than the rest.

Sorry, but I had to know if you were the one. Now, no more sleep on Thursday nights, thanks. Seriously though, I thought it was the same one, great buy, both crosses I would love to have in my collection. Congrats!!! Russel

Not to reiterate Micha's question, but is the second cross the one from DN's site? I saw he had one listed a few weeks ago that had sold. Never seen one like it before. Really unique! The unmarked Godet is particularly nice itself, and flat too. Two excellent crosses!

No not from D. but i did see that one..It sure had a hefty price tag though....

Yes it did, but they(L/12) are getting harder and harder to find. It did sell awfully quick too. I like yours a lot, don't have one like it yet, can't have them all, but I'll keep trying. R

Did you buy this from D.? He just sold one two weeks ago.

Not really my field - Very crisp polished silver for an 1870 and the rust could be a lovely touching touch. No other apparant markings. Tis? Tis Not? Tis? Tis Not?........My guess Tis Not? Gentlemen......

Tis the so-called "Latvian" made cross. Probably made in eastern Europe somewhere. Made in the last few years.